I owe John Wooton a few hundred dollars..

Ian S

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Mostly for showing me I've been overthinking things and getting ahead of myself, and to simplify rudiments, take hands apart, see what each hand is responsible for. Also for reminding me of the correct way to advance, by using stepping stones and dissecting things to understand them, always slowly at first. It's been a complete lesson.

Well, I don't know what an hour lesson fee is charged.. but I've learned so much from John in the last few days, even if only through his Vic Firth '40 rudiments' videos on youtube. I'll support him at least by buying the books. Man I've watched hundreds of youtube videos.. and by far most are filled with nonsense. For example, This Guy just makes me feel embarrassed for him. :? However, some are extremely helpful, this paradiddle video from Mike Michalkow was a huge epiphany for me last year.

When I was young new drummer, I got some great free help/advice/instruction from a couple local (Seattle) drummers (I owe them some money too!). One did open rehearsals at a cafe I worked, I could watch from directly behind him. Another showed me how to hold the stick, gave me the Jim Chapin 'Moeller Method' VHS, and also let me use his practice space and play his kit a few times. I was very lucky these guys were so generous when I was starting out, this was about 20 years ago or a little more.

But back then I was lazy, other than warm up a minute at the start of band rehearsal, I never practiced. Maybe once in a while I'd throw Moeller strokes for a minute here and there. I remember at one rehearsal I briefly tried a paradiddle. Never had any actual instruction on this, so just got frustrated, it just made me feel physically stupid. I sounded good enough to me when jamming out to some Pat Metheny or Critters Buggin, so I never bothered with rudiments. I was about 22 years old or so, no serious musician, just casual open mic or 'hey, let's start a band but never get anywhere.. etc. A few years on (about 12 years ago I think) had been playing and jamming casually off and on, band finally began gigging, but ..had a bit of tragedy occur and went away from music for a few years. I mentioned some of this in my new guy post when I joined here.

Anyway, couple years ago came back to it a totally different person and now gone down the rabbit hole with rudiment. But, over the last year or so, especially as far as instructional videos, I've kind of jumped around from one thing to another. First it's Stick Control exercise #33 recommend from Stanton Moore, next it's Gordy Knudtson push-pull video, then it's on to Swiss triplets. OK, I have a high attention span, I zone out almost trance on a thing when I sit down on it, but the things I've chosen to work on specifically, and in what order, has been erratic, not sensible progression. Generally up to now I've been sort of aimlessly wandering on my path of development. Grab bag, what's fun to learn next, kind of thing. :binky:

A few weeks ago I found myself landed at a Bruce Becker video. OK.. 4 Stroke Ruff Paradiddle yes hmm, not too extremely scary but man at the time, that alternating flam paradiddle-diddle,, hurt my brain a little. I felt embarrassed, I struggled with even imagining the pattern in my hands... 'oh, [email protected]!#, that's going to take me weeks maybe months to learn!'

So here it is a few weeks later. I haven't tackled yet, but I'm not scared of the flam-a-diddle anymore. I owe this mostly to John Wooton. For me, he just clicked, he's like a perfect teacher in many ways.

Anyway long / short of this : I wasn't using the correct stepping stones, building blocks toward opening up the next level. I was sort of all over the place and got ahead of myself in several areas. I was also not always taking apart rudiments to see what my hands were doing and forgetting to start out with each one very slowly. So, although I've worked hard over the past two years, lots of pillow work and several rudimentary skills, I've decided to sort of start over with at least some of this stuff. I'll come back to page 5 of Stick Control after I settle down and watch Dr. Throwdown talk about rudiment for a while, I'm very relaxed about it.

Flam-a-diddles don't frighten me anymore.. :love10:


This was kind of me just wanting to let off some steam and share about my stuymbles, and to say I finally bumped my head and had a revelation. But have at, please add any of your own tips, advice, anecdotes, stumbling blocks and any revelations you've had along the way. :sign7:


(Mods, I wasn't sure since I'm not instructing anyone here, but this is about instruction, so figured it fit best in "Teacher's Lounge" but if it's better in the General forum, please move accordingly. Thanks.)
 
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mtarrani

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For example, This Guy just makes me feel embarrassed for him. :?
I just checked out the video and don't understand why anyone would feel embarrassed for him. His advice to beginners is pure gold IMHO. Sure, many of us here are beyond what he is discussing and the examples that he gives, but beginners would be wise to heed his advice.
 

Jeremy Bender

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I agree about John Wooton! I've learned a quite a lot from his online VF videos. He really seems to want to carry on the playing style and interpretation of early regimental drummers with large field drums.
 
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Ian S

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Cheers gentlemen. :occasion5:


I just checked out the video and don't understand why anyone would feel embarrassed for him. His advice to beginners is pure gold IMHO. Sure, many of us here are beyond what he is discussing and the examples that he gives, but beginners would be wise to heed his advice.

I won't argue with that, I'm sure he has some advice helpful to new drummers. But to me his overall presentation shows he thinks he's an expert on whether or not you should do things that are actually dependent on situation or matters of personal choice. That stuff can be taken too seriously, may steer people wrong. Perhaps I'm too critical, but I get my fill of click-bait titles with splash screens suggesting ridiculous things like "burying the beater is always wrong, you should never do it", or that "you must play the bass drum with your foot in a certain position or you're doing it wrong".. even if he has disclaimers/walkbacks somewhere in the video, the titles and splash screens were always going to be enough. Then I listened to him for a couple of minutes,, and he seemed like a silly reality TV character with nothing pertinent to say but making plenty of money saying it, I guess rubbed me the wrong way.

But thanks for pointing this out though, in life I try to be 'live and let live', important rule of thumb to me and I've broken, I don't like to be 'judgy'. I could have easily left that part out, it wasn't necessary to pick on anyone in order to share what I meant to share. :wink:
 
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greegor

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Totally agree about click bait titles, but glad you walked back your comment about the unglamorous guy. I think he's a good place for beginners. Like you, I've bounced around the internets looking for various solutions, found Mike Michalkow's video golden to break through my speed problem with paradiddles, subscribed to an online course that I had no motivation to stick with (my bad, not his), I think Rob Brown does a great job on his 5 and 6 roll lessons. Yes, Stanton Moore's inverted paradiddle stuff is invaluable. Then I checked Gordy' Knudson's open/close stuff out and kinda blew my mind when I tried to apply it.

I decided to take lessons again, found a local teacher by chance who's been studying Gordy's stuff for years. I think it's a game changer and gives me a new way to break through both kit and hand technique. The personal one-on-one instruction is invaluable, at least for me.

Interesting how we all navigate our learning of this wonderful instrument. Best of luck on your journey!
 

Ian S

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Totally agree about click bait titles, but glad you walked back your comment about the unglamorous guy. I think he's a good place for beginners.
Thanks. The last thing I meant to do was get on here and chastise some youtube guy, although glamour certainly has nothing to do with it. I find him pretentious, and frankly incorrect about certain things. Of value would be to talk about the different sounds that are produced by playing off the head vs burying the beater, and when they might be desirable or worth avoiding, but no, he just tells people they're "doing it wrong". Personally, I'd point a beginner in a number of other directions before sending them to him..


So, when you gonna pay him?
Well, I hope Dr Throwdown is patient, cause I've got to pay down my credit card a bit first. He seems like an understanding guy. And in the meantime I'll buy his books, and mention his name when it seems appropriate.
 

Rock Salad

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I watch John Wooten's rudiments too, they are super clear and show some tempos. I figure I but V.F. product so I get to watch so I represent the product well.
 

Matched Gripper

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Mostly for showing me I've been overthinking things and getting ahead of myself, and to simplify rudiments, take hands apart, see what each hand is responsible for. Also for reminding me of the correct way to advance, by using stepping stones and dissecting things to understand them, always slowly at first. It's been a complete lesson.

Well, I don't know what an hour lesson fee is charged.. but I've learned so much from John in the last few days, even if only through his Vic Firth '40 rudiments' videos on youtube. I'll support him at least by buying the books. Man I've watched hundreds of youtube videos.. and by far most are filled with nonsense. For example, This Guy just makes me feel embarrassed for him. :? However, some are extremely helpful, this paradiddle video from Mike Michalkow was a huge epiphany for me last year.

When I was young new drummer, I got some great free help/advice/instruction from a couple local (Seattle) drummers (I owe them some money too!). One did open rehearsals at a cafe I worked, I could watch from directly behind him. Another showed me how to hold the stick, gave me the Jim Chapin 'Moeller Method' VHS, and also let me use his practice space and play his kit a few times. I was very lucky these guys were so generous when I was starting out, this was about 20 years ago or a little more.

But back then I was lazy, other than warm up a minute at the start of band rehearsal, I never practiced. Maybe once in a while I'd throw Moeller strokes for a minute here and there. I remember at one rehearsal I briefly tried a paradiddle. Never had any actual instruction on this, so just got frustrated, it just made me feel physically stupid. I sounded good enough to me when jamming out to some Pat Metheny or Critters Buggin, so I never bothered with rudiments. I was about 22 years old or so, no serious musician, just casual open mic or 'hey, let's start a band but never get anywhere.. etc. A few years on (about 12 years ago I think) had been playing and jamming casually off and on, band finally began gigging, but ..had a bit of tragedy occur and went away from music for a few years. I mentioned some of this in my new guy post when I joined here.

Anyway, couple years ago came back to it a totally different person and now gone down the rabbit hole with rudiment. But, over the last year or so, especially as far as instructional videos, I've kind of jumped around from one thing to another. First it's Stick Control exercise #33 recommend from Stanton Moore, next it's Gordy Knudtson push-pull video, then it's on to Swiss triplets. OK, I have a high attention span, I zone out almost trance on a thing when I sit down on it, but the things I've chosen to work on specifically, and in what order, has been erratic, not sensible progression. Generally up to now I've been sort of aimlessly wandering on my path of development. Grab bag, what's fun to learn next, kind of thing. :binky:

A few weeks ago I found myself landed at a Bruce Becker video. OK.. 4 Stroke Ruff Paradiddle yes hmm, not too extremely scary but man at the time, that alternating flam paradiddle-diddle,, hurt my brain a little. I felt embarrassed, I struggled with even imagining the pattern in my hands... 'oh, [email protected]!#, that's going to take me weeks maybe months to learn!'

So here it is a few weeks later. I haven't tackled yet, but I'm not scared of the flam-a-diddle anymore. I owe this mostly to John Wooton. For me, he just clicked, he's like a perfect teacher in many ways.

Anyway long / short of this : I wasn't using the correct stepping stones, building blocks toward opening up the next level. I was sort of all over the place and got ahead of myself in several areas. I was also not always taking apart rudiments to see what my hands were doing and forgetting to start out with each one very slowly. So, although I've worked hard over the past two years, lots of pillow work and several rudimentary skills, I've decided to sort of start over with at least some of this stuff. I'll come back to page 5 of Stick Control after I settle down and watch Dr. Throwdown talk about rudiment for a while, I'm very relaxed about it.

Flam-a-diddles don't frighten me anymore.. :love10:


This was kind of me just wanting to let off some steam and share about my stuymbles, and to say I finally bumped my head and had a revelation. But have at, please add any of your own tips, advice, anecdotes, stumbling blocks and any revelations you've had along the way. :sign7:


(Mods, I wasn't sure since I'm not instructing anyone here, but this is about instruction, so figured it fit best in "Teacher's Lounge" but if it's better in the General forum, please move accordingly. Thanks.)
I’m not sure what you mean by getting ahead of yourself, but, assuming your technique is sound, you can learn any rudiment or sticking to a pretty high level of proficiency by practicing with the open-closed-open method (basically slow-fast-slow).

If you aren’t familiar with it: start by playing the sticking very slowly (eg. 16ths at 20 bpm). Then gradually, evenly, increase the speed over the course of a minute (or more if you are still learning the sticking), until you are playing as fast as you can with ZERO muscle tension, and maintain that speed for another minute. If you start to feel any muscle tension then back off a bit. Then gradually and evenly decrease the speed at the same rate that you increased speed until you arrive at the starting speed.
 
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Ian S

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I’m not sure what you mean by getting ahead of yourself, but, assuming your technique is sound, you can learn any rudiment or sticking to a pretty high level of proficiency by practicing with the open-closed-open method (basically slow-fast-slow).

If you aren’t familiar with it: start by playing the sticking very slowly (eg. 16ths at 20 bpm). Then gradually, evenly, increase the speed over the course of a minute (or more if you are still learning the sticking), until you are playing as fast as you can with ZERO muscle tension, and maintain that speed for another minute. If you start to feel any muscle tension then back off a bit. Then gradually and evenly decrease the speed at the same rate that you increased speed until you arrive at the starting speed.

Thanks MG, by getting ahead of myself I meant I had been trying to learn and practice things I think of as difficult, while I still haven't even become really fluid with the simpler rudiments.

For instance I was staring through binoculars, in awe of flamadiddles, but I really hadn't worked with flams at all yet. I wasn't engaging in a sensible progression.

It's a tendency of mine in general,.. I tend to skip the crawling and go straight to running. So I guess I just needed John's video that day, a catalyst, to ring the bell in my head, 'Ian calm down, go to the beginning, separate the hands, start slow..'

Anyhow, yes, I'm familiar with the slow-fast-slow regimen, great for mastering the changing feel through the gears, so that's a great suggestion. I would use the slow-fast-slow regimen as a routine to keep the engine running smoothly. Anyhow I think the thing that really clicked for me with John, was to separate the hands to see what each is responsible for doing. And of course the reminder is always good, to start very slow when learning a new thing.
 
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