interesting set of hats - double-stamped with different era stamps

afwdrums

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just saw this listing on Reverb, interesting stamps on this pair of hats

one is double stamped, with what appears to be both the 60's stamp and the 50's stamp...I think it's been well established at this point, but here's potentially more evidence that stamp eras overlapped each other at least somewhat

the other appears to be a pre-trans stamp, so my guess is that these are not a factory matched pair and were matched up later, but a very interesting mix here

(edited to correct dates)
 
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zenstat

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Thanks for this. You've got the 70s stamp mixed up with the 50s small stamp. You are in good company.


That two stamp cymbal is from the overlap period between the 50s and the 60s stamps. This is where it gets interesting because that's the tall version (1.5") of the 60s stamp. I've been looking for the earliest evidence of the tall version for some time. I don't care that much about tall vs short except that I'm independently testing a claim about the 1.5" tall version being after the short version. This in turn is tied up with when bottom hammering stopped. And that again is tied up with Bill Hartrick not being able to tell the 50s from 70s reliably. This created a Gordian knot which is now untied, but it has taken a few years.

tall-stamp-yr.png


bot-hammer-yr.png


Yes the other cymbal has a stamp which is sometimes referred to as the Second Stamp.


Recently Bill Hartrick decided to call this version the 40s stamp and refer to other one as the 30s stamp. Of course that leaves the other ones unnamed and still in a muddle. :wink: I originally hid away the extra details in a little link, so some people still haven't caught on to the complexity.


When I move all this info plus the later research over into cymbal wiki all the variants (at least 5) will be in plain view.
 

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afwdrums

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Thanks for this. You've got the 70s stamp mixed up with the 50s small stamp. You are in good company.
I thought you might be interested in this one Zen...and shoot, I originally posted that it was the 50's small stamp, but then second guessed myself and went with 70's, mostly because the 70's stamp is often pressed in much more lightly than the 50's typically is, plus the lathing didn't look super 50's to me either...I don't mix the 2 up often, but this is a weird one!
 

zenstat

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I thought you might be interested in this one Zen...and shoot, I originally posted that it was the 50's small stamp, but then second guessed myself and went with 70's, mostly because the 70's stamp is often pressed in much more lightly than the 50's typically is, plus the lathing didn't look super 50's to me either...I don't mix the 2 up often, but this is a weird one!
The "pressed in lightly = 70s" is yet another internet myth created by overgeneralizing from too little data.

The other nice thing about the cymbal with both stamps is that it has a MEDIUM ink stamp. You may be aware that I've been collecting up cymbals with ink stamps in order to reconstruct the real weight classes in use in various decades. I started with comparing the 22" weight classes suggested by LuvMyLeedy on Cymbalholic to the weight class names used by Zildjian (based on catalogs and price lists from many decades)

22-weight-ranges.png


The this was checked against actual cymbals

22-counts-by-era.png


The first thing we learned is that these 22" weight classes work pretty well. The second thing we learned is that cymbals of all the different weight classes were produced in most decades. We knew that from catalogs, now we've picked that up in cymbals. The third thing we learned is that the idea that cymbals got heavier over time is a half truth. There is much more to the story. Next I compared models and weight class ink:

22-wt-classes-by-era.png


That research is ongoing as I find more cymbals with model/weight class ink. I'm still in the middle of that. What I do know is that he current (most common) method of scaling weight classes to other diameters (called ratio of areas) is systematically wrong and gets worse the further you move away from 22". The bud stein calculator is an implementation of a less than optimal method which has caught on.

In that reverb ad we have a 12" cymbal which has MEDIUM ink and weighs 496g. Ratio of areas (via budstein) says EXTREMELY LIGHT (Ex Thin in Zildjian terminology). :dontknow: Work is continuing slowly to try and come up with a model which is calibrated with actual ink on actual cymbals from all the diameters produced in all the production eras, and also incorporates the information on specific models. Every old cymbal with weight class ink helps. So if anybody has some I don't yet have in my database...
 
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ThomasL

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Could that be a medium splash? It's actually on the heavier side compared to my personal splash reference: 10" and 250g. That could explain why it ends up in the thin range when scaled to 22"?
 

zenstat

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I don't know. :dontknow: As of now I haven't done all the data cleaning and analysis for all diameters. I have weeks of catch up work to do on cymbals with ink.

It is possible that the Splash cymbals are on a different weight class scale, in the same way the some older Zildjian literature indicated that the Band cymbals were heavier (weight class for weight class) compared to Dance cymbals. It is also possible that we won't need to create a "special and different" set of weight classes and associated names for the diameters less than 13". Calibrating the "right" model might lead to a simple structure which gets all known cymbals with ink correctly classified by weight. Alternatively, we might end up with a complicated set of calculations which has additional factors for a number of things including specific model, decade of production, series (eg A vs A Custom vs K vs K Custom). I prefer simple, but if things get complicated I can still shield users from all the complexity by using an interface which is very simple.
 

Tama CW

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The first cymbal sports an SSA 50's stamp and one of the 60's stamps. Can't say I can tell from the photo if it's 1.25" or 1.5" tall for the 60's.
With that 50's to 60's crossover, would have more expected the SSB 50's stamp on it.....which "supposedly" is the later one of the SSA/SSB pairing. Though I'm sure that could be debated.

Neither cymbal shows the typical "long time" wear pattern you'd expect for broken in hi hats. So it's questionable if either ever were part of a hi hat pairing going back into the 60's or earlier. Probably not.
 
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zenstat

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The first cymbal sports an SSA 50's stamp and one of the 60's stamps. Can't say I can tell from the photo if it's 1.25" or 1.5" tall for the 60's.
Easy to demonstrate. Two lines the same length.

12-354-496-stampm.png


With that 50's to 60's crossover, would have more expected the SSB 50's stamp on it.....which "supposedly" is the later one of the SSA/SSB pairing. Though I'm sure that could be debated.
It might be an SSB, I haven't looked closely yet at the diagnostic measurement which is the width of the MADE IN U.S.A. Either way it isn't a problem. Now that we have enough data in hand, overlaps in stamp use years are expected rather than the exception.

Neither cymbal shows the typical "long time" wear pattern you'd expect for broken in hi hats. So it's questionable if either ever were part of a hi hat pairing going back into the 60's or earlier. Probably not.
Yes I agree. They either haven't had much use or haven't had much use as hi hats. Do you agree that the cymbal with two stamps looks a little more like what we call 50s than 60s in terms of visible hammering and lathing? It's a subtle distinction. Until we get a more developed terminology for hammering and lathing, I suspect we are left with a sort of "late 50s early 60s" naming for this style.
 
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Tama CW

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Yes, I agree the 2 stamp cymbal has the bell and look of a 50's Zildjian....and in particular of an SSA stamp. And this one is missing the top of the script like other SSA's. I'm not 100% sure about the
bell lathing on SSA vs. SSB. But, my own experiences with about 50-100 1950's cymbals, the SSA's almost always seem to come with the fine and stepped lathing....almost "bald" in spots.
The SSB's are often seem with later heavier style lathing......closer to a 60's bell.

I'm leery of drawing same length lines for stamp comparisons on any photos that show an angle shot of the cymbal (ie dead on and flat). I've been fooled too many times on measuring bells and even cymbal
dimensions when viewing kit photos (ie distortion). Sometimes you can be off by 20-30%. In this case we'd only be debating whether it's a 60's small or large stamp.

Interesting that if we didn't have the stamps or inking to go by....you might conclude that both cymbals were made in about the same period.....made with similar techniques. At least it appears that way to me.
 

zenstat

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And this one is missing the top of the script like other SSA's.
Using my criterion enough of the top is present to be an SSB, yet to be confirmed by measurements. But if you don't believe my equal line segments show the 60s stamp is the tall version, you probably won't believe any measurements I do. In that case I would use the other criteria I've developed to tell different stamps apart without measuring. None of them are 100% diagnostic but they are pretty good.

Of more interest to me is that the Small Stamp impression makes the die look pretty worn, and the 60s Stamp impression makes that die look pretty new.
 

Tama CW

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I can see those points on the stamp depth. Never really considered that. I don't have any problem trusting your measurements......only my own. If there was a big difference in price between SSA/SSB or
1960's small/large stamps I'd spend a lot more time ensuring I could recognize them from even lousy photos or angles. My interest is in the sound and history prior to around 1958. The later stuff of far less interest to me. But sound comes first. The stamps are one of the vehicles to get there.

I haven't spent any time studying 60's large stamps. But one thing that's obvious on this one is the strength of that impression....and that none of the AVEDIS lettering has the gapped or sagging letters so often seen on 60'a small stamps. The worn 50's stamp on this cymbal is a plus for cherry pickers as so many jump on it as a "70's thin stamp." The 50's had a "thin stamp" first though with "centered" AVEDIS.
 
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zenstat

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I haven't spent any time studying 60's large stamps.
Because of past confusions by others, I am always scrupulous about calling the 1.5" tall 60s stamp the "tall" stamp and never a 60's large stamp. I know you know, but I'm thinking of other readers who might land here via a google search from who knows where. :dontknow:

The 50's had a "thin stamp" first though with "centered" AVEDIS.
Centered vertically or horizontally? Relative to what?

Are you speaking of L3? That's one people get mixed up with other "no 3 dots in a triangle" stamps

Large-no-dots.jpg


Or L2? That's another one people get mixed up with the 60s stamps. The L2 can be excluded as a possiblity from that two stamp cymbal because it lacks a diagnostic alignment feature.

Large-3dots.jpg



The different alignments

LS2-alignment.png


versus the 60s

60s-short-alignment.png

60s-tall-alignment.png


That alignment difference doesn't distinguish the 60s tall from the 60s short, but it is diagnnostic for telling the L2 from the 60s stamps.
 
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Tama CW

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Yeah, I should use "tall" for 60's bigger stamp. Not being much of an English expert I tend to fall back to simplest terms. My bad.
Even the 50's large stamps pretty much have "centered" AVEDIS unlike their small stamp sisters. And that shifted "N" on the Large Stamp 3 dot is another key marker most miss.
Your Avedis Gallery covers ALL this stuff. Avedis Zildjian Gallery. Keep it handy. I use the K Zildjian Gallery a lot these days. For instance still trying to map the subtle differences from
an old stamp 3a to a 3b. But, that's another discussion.

Centered AVEDIS is of course vertical. It's half way between the script bottom and the top of ZILDJIAN. It's one of the easiest markers to verify most 50's small and large stamps w/o doing anything else.
I think there are some exceptions this....but I don't think I've run across one in the small stamps......ONLY the large stamps. And the LS being 1-7/8" pretty much blows all other traits out of the water.
The "centered" AVEDIS on the large stamps is a bit more subtle than the small stamps. But they are mostly centered when compared to 60's and later. Left to Right placement of "AVEDIS" is certainly THE
easiest factor in the Type 2 trans stamps. But I don't seem to run into it anywhere else. Well, at least nowhere else where I've found it to matter.

The Type 2 trans stamps are also interesting in that they have a style of "block lettering" unlike the rest of the trans stamps. Everything between "MADE IN USA" and the script has that appearance. It's more blocky
looking than the "rogue" 1960's stamp that has a "block look" to it. I wonder why Zildjian brought the Type 2 out only to discard within a year or so? But I shouldn't using "block" here as it's already utilized in the Large Stamp Block Lettering LS1.
 
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zenstat

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My Avedis gallery is a few years behind my research and I've got new alignment techniques for telling some stamps apart. Same for the K Zildjian Istanbul stamps. I'm planning on updating all of those when the info migrates to the wiki rather than put time into updates into the older galleries.

There are distinct variants of vertical alignment in the Small Stamps (both A and B variants) I identified in 2016. I'm not sure you have seen this. It was a "back room" discussion paper not linked on my site.


I included Paul Francis in the discussion to see if he had any info on what might be going on, and whether or not there were separate portions of the small stamp dies which were held together is some sort of holder. Didn't get any useful info from him, but remember he only started working at Zildjian in a much later year (which I've got written down somewhere) and the 1950s and 1960s were long gone. And although he did say he had all the old die stamps on a corner of his desk I never got a photo out of him.

In addition to the suggestion in tha discussion paper that there were separate die pieces top to bottom, there is another suggestion from @ChicagoDave (also years ago) that some of the dies might be in separate pieces right and left which are held tightly bound in a holder. These matters plus the question of wear showing in a particular die are things I put aside while I tried to move from "stamps" to studying whole cymbals.
 
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Cliff DeArment

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Sorry, I'm late…

Seems like we have two nagging questions:

1. SSA vs. SSB
2. 60's vs. 60's 1.5 (Tall)

Both are problematic. Not the best stamp pictures in this kind of work. Even a "good" picture, which in this case isn't do to angle and lighting, can be deceiving.

If I had to pick, it would be SSB and 1.5. Here's why…

Let's start with SSA/SSB. Sometimes it can be fuzzy. The top of the Ottoman of an SSB can sometimes be a little lost because of where the grooves are. Luckily there are other possible clues. The AVEDIS of an SSB is stamped in slightly lighter than the an ZILDJIAN section. But, it's so subtle and depends on how deep it was stamped in general. We would also know by the center hole. This cymbal may have been drilled out, but I don't think so. Hi Hat center hole will usually show something different than a drill out. If we look at the Second Stamp cymbal, that's an obvious drill out. The SSB shows center hi hat random shuffle, and so most likely larger than 1/2. A drilled out SSA (if it was a 7/16) will make a very slight triangle by the drill. In this case, any shuffling will make the triangle stronger as it's played, not random areas around the hole. Am I right? Maybe…. or not. Give me the damn cymbal and let's see!

On to 60's world… There are always more clues we might not have yet seen. One is the "S" of a 60's vs. 1.5 (Tall). It's the angle of the middle of an S. Again, not the best picture we have to work with, but it might be a 1.5. Here's the difference between the two S's:

60's
S

60's 1.5
S

Also, even with the angle it looks bigger then a usual 60's. But, we just can't know for sure, and never will with what we've got.

Sooooooooo...... Who is going to buy it to verify? Not me! ;)
 

zenstat

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Just in case people reading this get the wrong impression...

The production clues on a cymbal tell us when it was made. The trademark stamp tells us which trademark was used when it was stamped. We already know that cymbals have a waiting time between production and stamping.

This two stamp cymbal doesn't give a year of first use for the 1.5" tall version of the 60s stamp. That is something I'm still looking for, but this double stamped cymbal doesn't provide that. It gives a demonstration about waiting times because a cymbal which looks later 50s on production clues has a 1.5" tall 60s stamp. That's true whether or not it had a late 50s Small Stamp on it.

The bonus of this cymbal also having a Small Stamp on it is that it reminds us that the factory process is not quite 100% accurate. Some cymbals escape with no stamp, some leave the factory with two, almost all have just the one. Of the cymbals with two stamps I've recorded they tend to have trademark stamps which we think are adjacent in the timeline. That's talking "big picture" of 50s Small Stamps vs 60s Stamps, not getting into the sub types or individual dies.

Seems like we have two nagging questions:

1. SSA vs. SSB
2. 60's vs. 60's 1.5 (Tall)
Those don't nag me at all. :wink: The questions I'm working on are a little different:

First year of use in factory for the 60s 1.5 (Tall). Last year is established as around 1975±1 on the basis of use on specific models. I don't yet have a way to get first year of use.

First year of use in factory for the 60s 1.25 (Short). Last year is established as around 1975±1 on the basis of use on specific models. I don't yet have a way to get first year of use.

Last year of use in factory for the late 50s Small Stamps. This includes working out if the late 50s Small Stamps were in use in the factory at the same the 60s stamps came into use.

First year of use in factory for the 70s stamp. Last year is established as 1993±1 on the basis of use on specific models plus the general sequence of ink changes. I don't yet have a way to get first year of use, although we presume it is in the early 1970s. Note that the 70s stamp overlaps with the 80s CO stamp which we have currently established as 1982 to 1987, but is also subject to change as new information comes to hand.

I'm all about documenting overlaps these days, rather than assuming a non overlapping timeline. That's where the cymbals have led me.
 

Tama CW

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Thanks for posting that SSA/SSB AVEDIS vertical placement article Zenstat. I don't recall ever seeing it before. I knew from experience that AVEDIS is usually dead center
on most SSA/SSB but did notice some not centered as much as others. But from eye balling many of these....not quite as low as "AVEDIS" shows on the 70's stamps....which is where I use this feature the most.
Something I'll watch more closely for on the 50's Zildjian small stamps.
 


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