interesting set of hats - double-stamped with different era stamps

mattr

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What you’re looking at here I’m almost entirely certain is a pair of rejected cymbals… at least one of them is. The one that is double stamp, off centered stamp, the “medium” ink stamp and its very large topside gouge mark… that is a rejected cymbal that was used to test the setup of the rolling trademark stamper.

Both have very large “plier marks”. That type of tooling defect occur when the operator is quickly quenching a hot blank but accidentally “twists” the tongs on the hot/soft blank while dragging it into the quench tank… that creates that sort indentation. But it’s a cosmetic defect, that would be a reject.

To me, someone just walked out the door with these cosmetic rejects a long time ago…

AC1BD43E-1F93-4489-828A-344BC893D446.jpeg


9C4AA3C1-3B93-4633-9BD9-2E82209364F0.jpeg

006F4C02-7F66-41D2-8F4E-0A241575C951.jpeg
 

zenstat

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These oval depressions have the trademark stamp on the other side. They are thought to be due to the pressure of pressing (also called "rolling in" in Zildjian-speak) the die stamp in. Are you suggesting these are made by tongs?


9C4AA3C1-3B93-4633-9BD9-2E82209364F0.jpeg


006F4C02-7F66-41D2-8F4E-0A241575C951.jpeg


Of course, there are always exceptions.

And are you saying that I should flag the MEDIUM ink stamp on that 12" cymbal as unreliable in reconstructing weight classes? Just somebody randomly trying out a weight ink stamp on a cymbal which wasn't expected to leave the factory?
 
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mattr

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FD16F675-817C-4C34-86EF-316E50D86D68.jpeg

The trademark stamp roller was know to crack splashes. I think for this cymbal, this was an “attempt” to fix the plier mark by putting the trademark over it. Look how distorted the trademark is, that leads me to think the deformation was already there.
 

zenstat

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This is one of my favorite exceptions where somebody did the tademark stamp on the wrong surface, and it also demonstrates that the oval indentation isn't mandatory. It is a function of the setting of the machine. Print through on the top surface. Trademark on the bottom surface.

15-top-view.jpg


15-bot-view.jpg



View attachment 524743
The trademark stamp roller was know to crack splashes. I think for this cymbal, this was an “attempt” to fix the plier mark by putting the trademark over it. Look how distorted the trademark is, that leads me to think the deformation was already there.
The trademark stamp roller wasn't in use when that "second" stamp was in use in the early 1940s. The dies were separately struck pieces which is why the parts didn't always line up. The example you posted shows that the Made was struck twice as the M has a different vertical alignment from the USA.

ptM.jpeg


This is why there isn't a standard height given for stamps which are pre Trans stamp. Lots of variability. They even got some portions upside down now and then.


upside-down-part.jpg

From:

 

zenstat

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Is that fuzzy stamp image I annotated from the cymbal in question? I ask because when I grab an image of it things are sharp. It is much easier to see the misaligned MADE.

Screen Shot 2021-10-26 at 9.06.01 AM.png


The impression :wink: which we have built up over the years staring at the variation in the way these are pressed in is that they were struck with a hammer. The trademark was in several portions which were struck separately. When one portion wasn't strong enough they hit it again. Sometimes it was moved slightly in between. Sometimes it looks like it bounced. That's my explanation for what we see.

There is another proposal that these are purposeful "mistakes" which indicate which cymbalsmith made the cymbal. They were called "moving commas" when Drumaholic first proposed them. He still seems to believe they are individual makers marks but has provided no evidence to date.

http://black.net.nz/cym2013/ZDatingZildjianCymbals.pdf <<< downloadable pdf if the link works

Looking at the full size image of the 12" in question it does seem that the trademark is on the raised oval at about 10 o'clock. That does suggest that in this case the oval arose from some other cause if the current understanding of when the rolling on machine came into use is correct.

Screen Shot 2021-10-26 at 9.19.59 AM.png
 
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ThomasL

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The fuzzy stamp picture looks like a blow-up of the second picture you posted (showing the whole cymbal).
 

mattr

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Those are certainly “plier marks”, and now that you clarified that they were separate portions of a hand stamp (didn’t know that was a thing!), that sort of clinches it for me that the Testers of their day were trying to “cover up” a blemish. Hand stamped and pre-carbide shiny… that’s an old cymbal, but the cup and lathing is pretty uniform, so I would gander it a 1940s/50s era… though I have no knowledge of when the roll stamps were brought in.

Upsidedown trademarks and other misfit things… they weren’t that goofy back then! I have to imagine those were rejects that walked out the door back in their day…

Personally, I couldn’t care less about vintage A’s (…or K’s for that matter), so I’ve never have, never will follow the great dating debates. But my A dating knowledge is from Leon C., and that’s 1962 and onward.
 

mattr

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Sorry, I guess my background was in the “General” section. I was the R&D/Quality Engineer and understudy apprentice with Paul Francis at Zildjian for 4.5 years. With COVID, sort of got back more into drumming, and back on the forum.

 


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