Is this the oldest New LUDWIG AND LUDWIG drum ????

[Bun Carlos]

Why not get Ryan Taylor's opinion?
(Taylor is the design engineer with Ludwig)
Ludwig always bought their brass shells. The middle seam is there because, early on, the fabricator didn't have tooling that could handle any wider material...

Huh? This takes the record for the goofiest DFO thread in recent memory!

 

[campbellh]

Yeah, not buying this story for a second.

Me either... lots of speculation

 

[campbellh]

Huh? This takes the record for the goofiest DFO thread in recent memory!

Amen - I keep wondering why it's gaining any attention....

 

[Commodore]

Details of the 1908 patent are not online.

The 1908 patent strainer was apparently only used until 1910-1919 ...and then later on the cheaper drums. In the 1912 Ludwig and Ludwig catalog the "Mills style" drum's strainer was marked patent pending.


The inventor was a Ludwig brother-in-law, Robert C. Danly. Here is a link to Mr. Danly's more successful "BLACK BEAUTY" strainer patents: https://patents.google.com/patent/US1481988A/en

Not So Modern Drummer has more: https://www.notsomoderndrummer.com/...lopment-of-the-early-snare-strainer-1889-1920

 

[RogersLudwig]

I don't understand what this thread is about.

It’s about two pages long

 

[gkrk]

It’s about two pages long

Two pages and 3+ months and still not following. Someone got an agenda here or is this a cognitive-style-in-your-face moment?

 

[JDA]

Two pages and 3+ months and still not following. Someone got an agenda here or is this a cognitive-style-in-your-face moment?

no He's just sourcing where the early brass parts and shapes Came from

 

[gkrk]

O.K. Maybe sorting it all out into different threads would make this easier to discern. More power to 'em.

 

[afwdrums]

Another piece of evidence. The snare stand found with the early Ludwig and Ludwig brass snare has been positively dated to before 1909. Hamilton was founded in 1883 in Middletown Ohio. The base was widened in 1909. This would move everything back in time.

View attachment 543880
The main point:

It has been documented that the 5 inch and above BRASS shells came from the same OUTSIDE supplier. These are formed from two pieces because the tool that formed the shells could not accommodate more than 4 inch wide stock. One side of each half was crimped and then the two were joined to create the final shell.

I sure wish I understood what the OP is hoping to accomplish here...almost every post he has made in this thread has been edited, repeatedly, over and over again...the post I have quoted here has been posted, and then apparently deleted, and then re-posted at least 3 times now over the past week or so...it's just weird

 

[4MoreYearsOhNo]

The 1908 patent strainer was apparently only used until 1910-1911.

No, this is just plain wrong. There is a lot in your posts that is wrong, but this really stands out, and blows all your dating out of the water. You need to listen to the members here who know what they are talking about regarding Ludwig, like Bun who has owned more Ludwig drums than probably anyone else here?

This strainer was used by Ludwig until at least 1928 on the Universal, low end entry level 6 lug snares. Which is undoubtedly what you have here. Below is a photo of your drum from the 1928 catalog, complements of drumarchive. There is nothing on the drum to suggest it is earlier than that, and certainly not "Around 1909 ... an unbranded prototype ... of their latest snare drum creation". Patent dates are when the throwoff PART, not the drum, was first made, and would be kept on the throwoff part until it was re-tooled or no longer used.

As to Lyon and Healy, they were a musical instrument retailer as well as a manufacturer of harps (starting in the mid 1800's) and other instruments (guitars, brass instruments, probably some drums as well). But most of what they sold in their retail stores (there were several) was from other manufacturers, even Steinway pianos. So it is clearly possible that they re-sold some Ludwig drums which could explain the label in the interior. But where did the idea that this was from the L&H "archive" come from? And frankly, that label looks pretty suspect and could easily have been taken from another drum or another music instrument entirely and unconvincingly glued on. As to your idea that the snare drum stand says anything about the age of the drum - OK, that's really grasping at straws.

 

[Commodore]

No, this is just plain wrong. There is a lot in your posts that is wrong, but this really stands out, and blows all your dating out of the water. You need to listen to the members here who know what they are talking about regarding Ludwig, like Bun who has owned more Ludwig drums than probably anyone else here?

This strainer was used by Ludwig until at least 1928 on the Universal, low end entry level 6 lug snares. Which is undoubtedly what you have here. Below is a photo of your drum from the 1928 catalog, complements of drumarchive. There is nothing on the drum to suggest it is earlier than that, and certainly not "Around 1909 ... an unbranded prototype ... of their latest snare drum creation". Patent dates are when the throwoff PART, not the drum, was first made, and would be kept on the throwoff part until it was re-tooled or no longer used.

As to Lyon and Healy, they were a musical instrument retailer as well as a manufacturer of harps (starting in the mid 1800's) and other instruments (guitars, brass instruments, probably some drums as well). But most of what they sold in their retail stores (there were several) was from other manufacturers, even Steinway pianos. So it is clearly possible that they re-sold some Ludwig drums which could explain the label in the interior. But where did the idea that this was from the L&H "archive" come from? And frankly, that label looks pretty suspect and could easily have been taken from another drum or another music instrument entirely and unconvincingly glued on. As to your idea that the snare drum stand says anything about the age of the drum - OK, that's really grasping at straws.
View attachment 544023

Thank you for the reply. It is good to respond to criticism of the drum, itself

1.) My drum is 6" x 14." In the above ad, only a 4 x 14 and 5 x 14 are listed for sale.
2.) Compare lug length between the picture above and mine.
3.) The drum in your picture is marked "Universal" on the top hoop. ...My drum's hoops are unbranded
4.) My Drum is unmarked, is obviously a professional model. Professional models in the above era are engraved "Ludwig and Ludwig" on the body. ...So, Mine is earlier still.
5.) In the above picture the snare strainer is taller and unmarked. (The Tango strainers I've seen are never marked) At 20 years a 1908 patent date becomes just "too dated."
6.) All middle seam brass Ludwig drum shells came from the same supplier so are very similar in construction, only differing in details. Details matter to dating.
7.) Provenance is very important in antiques. I can prove where this snare came from ...and can trace the history. I can post ownership/sales documents...
8.) Condition: My drum is unused and unaltered. There is no way to fake a 100 year old patina.
9.) I've never even unwrapped it. It came from a string of dealers, so it IS essentially the last new stock Ludwig and Ludwig snare.
10.) I collect historically important snare drums. I own this and the first years: WFL, Leedy and Ludwig, 5.5" Jazz Festival in OBP, etc, +++. I know old drums.

Somebody, please defend me here!

 

[JDA]

I defend your right to speak;
carry on you got some cool pictures
people can disagree it doesn't matter

 

[afwdrums]

Thank you for the reply. It is good to respond to criticism of the drum, itself

1.) My drum is 6" x 14" In the above ad, only a 4 x 14 and 5 x 14 are listed for sale.
2.) Compare lug length between the picture above and mine.
3.) The drum in your picture is marked "Universal" on the top hoop. ...My drum's hoops are unbranded
4.) My Drum is unmarked, is obviously a professional model. Professional models in the above era were marked "Ludwig and Ludwig" on the body. SO ...Mine is earlier still.
5.) In the above picture the snare strainer is taller and unmarked. (The Tango strainers I've seen are never marked) After 20 years a 1908 patent date just becomes "too old."
6.) All middle seam brass Ludwig drum shells came from the same supplier so are very similar in construction, only differing in details. To collectors, All Details matter.
7.) Provenance is very important in antiques. I can prove where this snare came from ...and can trace the history. I can and will post ownership/sales documents
8.) Condition: My drum is unused and unaltered. There is no way to fake a 100 year old patina.
9.) I've never even unwrapped it. It came from a string of dealers, so it IS essentially the last new stock Ludwig and Ludwig snare.
10.) I collect historically important snare drums. I own this and the first years: WFL, Leedy and Ludwig, Ludwig Supraphonic ...and a 1964 Ludwig prototype, +++. I know old drums.

Somebody, please defend me here!!!

questions:
you say the drum is NOS and that you've never even unwrapped it, but there are photos posted here which clearly have no original packaging, how did you take the photos of it?
why is there a screw missing (on the strainer, where it attaches to the hoop) on a brand new-old-stock, never been unwrapped, unused, unaltered drum?

 

[JDA]

do it
i want to see em too
just keep it in this thread Bro
(no matter (thread title)what brand make they are

 

[afwdrums]

Thanks!

I've edited to clarify, but did originally state that the pictures came from the music store.

I've not checked yet, but the seller did disassemble the drum to take the inside pictures...

gotta say, I find all the constant editing of posts on this thread very peculiar, but maybe that's just me

I'm no expert, I can't say that your story is either true or false (though I definitely lean heavily one way)...here's the issue here:

you're making a bold claim...you say you have a prototype NOB Ludwig that pre-dates all production models...that's like saying you have a prototype Stratocaster or Ford Mustang or something (in NOS condition no less)...claiming something like that will undoubtably face heavy scrutiny and thus the evidence must be rock solid...it's gotta be so air-tight that its beyond question, that any layman can clearly understand it's validity

again, my only expertise is owning a couple very old Ludwig's myself, but so far all I see is evidence of is a nice clean example of a Ludwig Universal, which is not a bad thing

 

[retrosonic]

Fascinating thread. Unless I missed it, I havent read anything about a Serial number..... does this drum have one?

 

[4MoreYearsOhNo]

Thank you for the reply. It is good to respond to criticism of the drum, itself

1.) My drum is 6" x 14." In the above ad, only a 4 x 14 and 5 x 14 are listed for sale.
2.) Compare lug length between the picture above and mine.
3.) The drum in your picture is marked "Universal" on the top hoop. ...My drum's hoops are unbranded
4.) My Drum is unmarked, is obviously a professional model. Professional models in the above era are engraved "Ludwig and Ludwig" on the body. ...So, Mine is earlier still.
5.) In the above picture the snare strainer is taller and unmarked. (The Tango strainers I've seen are never marked) At 20 years a 1908 patent date becomes just "too dated."
6.) All middle seam brass Ludwig drum shells came from the same supplier so are very similar in construction, only differing in details. Details matter to dating.
7.) Provenance is very important in antiques. I can prove where this snare came from ...and can trace the history. I can post ownership/sales documents...
8.) Condition: My drum is unused and unaltered. There is no way to fake a 100 year old patina.
9.) I've never even unwrapped it. It came from a string of dealers, so it IS essentially the last new stock Ludwig and Ludwig snare.
10.) I collect historically important snare drums. I own this and the first years: WFL, Leedy and Ludwig, Ludwig Supraphonic ...and a 1964 Ludwig prototype, +++. I know old drums.

Somebody, please defend me here!

1. and 2. You have not taken the drum out of the box, so it was measured by the music store selling it. This is undoubtedly a 5x14 drum, and they measured from top of rim to bottom of rim, rather than inside the drum. So their measurement is wrong. This happens ALL the time.
3. and 4. Unflanged rims do not have a long lifetime; they get bent and out of round. Rims are trivially changed on drums, and trivially drilled in this case to attach the strainer. So maybe it is not from the original drum. OR, if this really does have an original Lyon and Healy tag in it (and it is not a later addition), then it is likely that L&H would have purchased unbranded drums from Ludwig to be re-sold in their retail shops. Reselling from other manufacturers was a major part of L&H's business, as I stated earlier.
5. Wrong. It is the same strainer. There is a clearer picture in the 1927 catalog, and it was still being used in 1935 on their cheapest student entry level drums. Or see the picture below from the 1922 catalog. This is what Ludwig did in their early days - they would invent a new strainer, and move the old strainers onto their cheaper drums. You simply cannot claim that Ludwig was not using an identical strainer for decades after the patent date.
6. Huh? You have no details to talk about, so what is your point here?
7. Provenance. Indeed, I am a collector not only of vintage drums, but I have collected a lot of 18th and 19th century furniture. I know antiques. So if you have anything to prove provenance - if you could really show verifiable proof back to 1908, and that this drum was from "the Lyon and Healy archives", then by all means show it here. Because everything else you are arguing here is either unpersuasive or wrong.
8. Your drum is not unused or unaltered. And see what I said above about owning 300 year old antiques - I know patina.
9. As pointed out, this is simply wrong. The dealer who sold it to you put it in a box and shipped it to you. Or are you saying that you have a wooden box from 1908 with a label on it from the Lyon and Healy archives - because clearly you do not.
10. You want to collect historically important snare drums. Who doesn't? But that doesn't mean that THIS drum is historically significant, because so far your evidence for that is nonexistant. But maybe one of your other drums is historically important - so by all means post your other drums. I am not trying to discourage you - I am simply trying to add some reality to this discussion.

Defend yourself - show us your provenance documentation - if any exists.

 

[Drumbumcrumb]

Around 1909 one (or both) of the Ludwig brothers took an unbranded prototype (patent dated 1908) of their latest snare drum creation over to Chicago's oldest and largest music store; Lyon and Healy.
Lyon and Healy likely sold the brother's Drum Pedal, etc. The brothers were likely interested in Lyon and Healy marketing their new BRASS snare drum.

Sooo, basically this is a dramatic reenactment of a thing that might’ve happened, you hope, and they were toting your drum? That’s a weirdly specific made up story to present as fact. Here’s a dinger - IF there was any truth to this, don’t you find it odd that the drum(s) would be just kinda sold off as if they were taking up space? Nobody with ANY drum knowledge ever saw it? It’s not only like saying you have the first Stratocaster, it’s like saying you bought the first Strat from a music store because nobody knew what they had except YOU. That adds a layer of incredibility to the story. As someone else stated, provenance is everything- and it takes more than a clever yet entirely fabricated story to establish provenance. You’ve created a narrative and then said “You can’t prove I’m wrong”… Thats not how it works.

 

[Commodore]

1. and 2. You have not taken the drum out of the box, so it was measured by the music store selling it. This is undoubtedly a 5x14 drum, and they measured from top of rim to bottom of rim, rather than inside the drum. So their measurement is wrong. This happens ALL the time.
3. and 4. Unflanged rims do not have a long lifetime; they get bent and out of round. Rims are trivially changed on drums, and trivially drilled in this case to attach the strainer. So maybe it is not from the original drum. OR, if this really does have an original Lyon and Healy tag in it (and it is not a later addition), then it is likely that L&H would have purchased unbranded drums from Ludwig to be re-sold in their retail shops. Reselling from other manufacturers was a major part of L&H's business, as I stated earlier.
5. Wrong. It is the same strainer. There is a clearer picture in the 1927 catalog, and it was still being used in 1935 on their cheapest student entry level drums. Or see the picture below from the 1922 catalog. This is what Ludwig did in their early days - they would invent a new strainer, and move the old strainers onto their cheaper drums. You simply cannot claim that Ludwig was not using an identical strainer for decades after the patent date.
6. Huh? You have no details to talk about, so what is your point here?
7. Provenance. Indeed, I am a collector not only of vintage drums, but I have collected a lot of 18th and 19th century furniture. I know antiques. So if you have anything to prove provenance - if you could really show verifiable proof back to 1908, and that this drum was from "the Lyon and Healy archives", then by all means show it here. Because everything else you are arguing here is either unpersuasive or wrong.
8. Your drum is not unused or unaltered. And see what I said above about owning 300 year old antiques - I know patina.
9. As pointed out, this is simply wrong. The dealer who sold it to you put it in a box and shipped it to you. Or are you saying that you have a wooden box from 1908 with a label on it from the Lyon and Healy archives - because clearly you do not.
10. You want to collect historically important snare drums. Who doesn't? But that doesn't mean that THIS drum is historically significant, because so far your evidence for that is nonexistant. But maybe one of your other drums is historically important - so by all means post your other drums. I am not trying to discourage you - I am simply trying to add some reality to this discussion.

Defend yourself - show us your provenance documentation - if any exists.

View attachment 544750

Thank you for the point by point! I unwrapped the drum for you...
Most objection can be handled by a picture:

The bottom drum is a Supraphonic. It is an example of the 1970 only, no serial number, Supraphonic. Supraphonics are widely considered as 5 inch drums, so the old drum is almost an inch deeper. This drum is not a "Universal" just because, or simply because it has no markings. Usually the taller, high end Ludwig and Ludwig drums are marked "Ludwig and Ludwig" on the body. The rims and heads are also unmarked and obviously original, too.

It is in excellent unplayed shape because it was put up and stored for decades. Why was it archived? ...Likely it must have been considered important by someone important...

My claim was that this is the oldest new stock Ludwig and Ludwig made drum in existence. It is no longer that, because I've opened the shipping package....

 

[Drumbumcrumb]

Well it WAS the oldest nos in existence but now the ‘package’ has been opened. Thanks a lot 4moreyears, for YOU the museum piece has been unpackaged. Cue the horn section for the Wah-wah. Ah well, the pics were worth it.