John Bonham and Zildjian

Burps

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But Bonham is quoted in Paistes own profile book as saying he began using Paiste cymbals in 1970. Wouldnt this include the studio as well? The first album was released in 69 and recorded in 68, as stated by Johnny D.
 

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ThomFloor said:
Somebody write Jimmy Page.
It would be interesting to find out if Page took note of the actual cymbals and can remember that far back. I mean, this is 50 years ago!
 

Bri6366

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Burps said:
But Bonham is quoted in Paistes own profile book as saying he began using Paiste cymbals in 1970. Wouldnt this include the studio as well? The first album was released in 69 and recorded in 68, as stated by Johnny D.
He was quoted in the Paiste profiles book. Whether he really said exactlhy that or it was edited we will never know. There is a reason Neil Peart started writing his own ads.
 

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The Dave Mattacks' quote is in the JB book "Thunder of the Gods" as well. In that book it says the Ludwig kit 22,13 and 16 (I think BDP) were used on the first album, but that could be wrong info. The drums and cymbals do sound different on the first album to me but always assumed they were Giant Beats and later 2002's

More fun info that Paiste Agreement was dated the day I was born and 1971 is when the 2002's were introduced. I'm a Zildjian guy but hoping Paiste will have a special edition 2002's for the 50th aniversary and I will break my own rules and buy some Paistes :)
 

DannyPattersonMusic

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I've always had the thought that he went with Paiste because Ludwig was the distributor for Paiste and it makes since to get both together. As well as others have said he's in the UK and I would imagine it's easier to get Paiste than Zildjians over there in those days.

Sort of the same thing here as of late, with a lot of drummers using Promark sticks and Evans drum heads ... both are from the same company.
 

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British artists were dominant in Europe. The brands they used were used elsewhere there. That's why you can find a lot of vintage Premier drums around.
All future big names were using them in 60's: Starr,Baker, Mitchell, Mason. Then Ringo came in 1964 with Ludwigs and it turned the market upside down.
By that time Ludwig had a deal with Zildjian, Ringo played them (while he played mixed UK distributed brands like Super Zyn or Krut). Year after you can see "Ludwig imported cymbals" listed together with Zildjians in catalog.
Ludwig "imported" cymbals were made by Paiste. Then Paiste took over the cymbal deal for Ludwig distribution. Zildjians are gone from 1967 catalog.
By the late 60's big name endorsers who switched to Ludwigs also switched to Paiste (some remained with Zildjian like Mitchell or Baker)

John Bonham was incoming new drummer in 1968 without endorsing deal, so he used what was and what he had at that time.
In 1969 Led Zeppelin I and Led Zeppelin II albums were released.
There are many conclusions on LZ I album (A Zildjians, smaller sizes: 22 ride, 14 hi hat etc) but more interesting is the second album.
You can hear a lot of looking for what became, I call it "John Bonham final cymbal sound" there. He used various cymbals and you can distinct it.
It's my guessing, but try to spot the differences yourself:
1. Whole Lotta Love: long and short decay bright crashes in the intro. Sounds paiste 18 and 16.
2. What Is and What Should Never Be: 22 Ride (Avedis?)
3. Lemon Song: dark sounding mellow crash on intro (18 or 20 Avedis?) and paiste 16
4. Thank You: 18-20 Avedis crash and Paiste 18 crash
5. Heartbreaker: Giant beats all around, including 24 ride.
etc...
There could be Paiste 602's in various weights in use instead. But my ears hear that dark "sweetness" 60's Zildjian here and there.
 

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Snurf, interesting points. I agree his cymbal sound becomes a trademark from that point onward.
But all I hear to my ears on Led Zep II are Giant Beat sounds....especially Lemon Song, Whole Lotta Love, Heartbreaker. This was recorded during a heavy touring period, several studios, but all sorts of concert pics from that period show what appears to be Giant Beats (24, 20, 18 with maybe 602 sound-edge hats). The other huge factor in doing this are studio techniques, they make it really hard to tell.
 

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ThomFloor said:
Snurf, interesting points. I agree his cymbal sound becomes a trademark from that point onward.
But all I hear to my ears on Led Zep II are Giant Beat sounds....especially Lemon Song, Whole Lotta Love, Heartbreaker. This was recorded during a heavy touring period, several studios, but all sorts of concert pics from that period show what appears to be Giant Beats (24, 20, 18 with maybe 602 sound-edge hats). The other huge factor in doing this are studio techniques, they make it really hard to tell.
I agree about studio techniques, there were so many locations for recording of the songs for that album that I doubt there were always Paistes exclusively around, especially in US. Timing was pretty limited. Jimmy and Eddie Kramer (working with recording and engineering Hendrix Experience w/Mitch Mitchell - Zildjian player) could go many times for "quick, working" solutions for cymbal sound.
In many tracks there is definitely: "dark vs bright", "bright and bright", "dark and dark" crash accenting. Smaller crash (16) has shimmer bright Paiste character, IMHO
It's all guessing. If Eddie or Jimmy could reveal what tools were used to achieve those sounds....

Would be great to Terry (bonzoleum) to chime in...
 

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snurf said:
Snurf, interesting points. I agree his cymbal sound becomes a trademark from that point onward.
But all I hear to my ears on Led Zep II are Giant Beat sounds....especially Lemon Song, Whole Lotta Love, Heartbreaker. This was recorded during a heavy touring period, several studios, but all sorts of concert pics from that period show what appears to be Giant Beats (24, 20, 18 with maybe 602 sound-edge hats). The other huge factor in doing this are studio techniques, they make it really hard to tell.
I agree about studio techniques, there were so many locations for recording of the songs for that album that I doubt there were always Paistes exclusively around, especially in US. Timing was pretty limited. Jimmy and Eddie Kramer (working with recording and engineering Hendrix Experience w/Mitch Mitchell - Zildjian player) could go many times for "quick, working" solutions for cymbal sound.
In many tracks there is definitely: "dark vs bright", "bright and bright", "dark and dark" crash accenting. Smaller crash (16) has shimmer bright Paiste character, IMHO
It's all guessing. If Eddie or Jimmy could reveal what tools were used to achieve those sounds....

Would be great to Terry (bonzoleum) to chime in...
I agree 100% with ThomFloor, I hear Giant Beats, not A. Zildjian. If you've ever heard an original Giant Beat (not the reissues) you'll hear that warm, dark, mellow sound. A great example is Kenney Jones' cymbal sound on "Stay With Me." There's a warmth to their sound, yet a shimmer, but a different sound than an A. Zildjian.

Snurf, Mitch Mitchell used Paiste early on with Hendrix. Giant Beats and 602s. He told me this directly and still had a few old Paistes at the time of his death.
 

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snurf said:
Year after you can see "Ludwig imported cymbals" listed together with Zildjians in catalog.
Ludwig "imported" cymbals were made by Paiste. Then Paiste took over the cymbal deal for Ludwig distribution. Zildjians are gone from 1967 catalog.
By the late 60's big name endorsers who switched to Ludwigs also switched to Paiste (some remained with Zildjian like Mitchell or Baker)
In his autobiography Bill Ludwig Jr. says that his dad (W.F.L. Senior) warned him that Avedis Zildjian (the man, not the company) would not be happy if Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste and would probably stop selling them cymbals. Ludwig Jr. didn't think Zildjian would be willing to drop one of their bigger distributors...but the old man (Ludwig Sr.) was right that the other old man (A. Zildjian) would be P.O.'d and do just that. So in addition to ALL the other headaches that the Paiste deal eventually caused Ludwig it also stopped them from being able to sell Zildjian products.
 

ThomFloor

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K.O. said:
In his autobiography Bill Ludwig Jr. says that his dad (W.F.L. Senior) warned him that Avedis Zildjian (the man, not the company) would not be happy if Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste and would probably stop selling them cymbals. Ludwig Jr. didn't think Zildjian would be willing to drop one of their bigger distributors...but the old man (Ludwig Sr.) was right that the other old man (A. Zildjian) would be P.O.'d and do just that. So in addition to ALL the other headaches that the Paiste deal eventually caused Ludwig it also stopped them from being able to sell Zildjian products.
Great story, but I don't understand that logic. Is it not the benefit of Zildjian to have their cymbals go out with every Ludwig kit that is sold (not other way around)?
IF somebody comes in a shop for cymbals, they are not going to come out with a complimentary deal on drums. Rather, somebody wants to buy a drum kit, and comes out with a deal on complimentary cymbals to go with it.
Either way, seems like none of these companies were harmed.
 

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ThomFloor said:
In his autobiography Bill Ludwig Jr. says that his dad (W.F.L. Senior) warned him that Avedis Zildjian (the man, not the company) would not be happy if Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste and would probably stop selling them cymbals. Ludwig Jr. didn't think Zildjian would be willing to drop one of their bigger distributors...but the old man (Ludwig Sr.) was right that the other old man (A. Zildjian) would be P.O.'d and do just that. So in addition to ALL the other headaches that the Paiste deal eventually caused Ludwig it also stopped them from being able to sell Zildjian products.
Great story, but I don't understand that logic. Is it not the benefit of Zildjian to have their cymbals go out with every Ludwig kit that is sold (not other way around)?
IF somebody comes in a shop for cymbals, they are not going to come out with a complimentary deal on drums. Rather, somebody wants to buy a drum kit, and comes out with a deal on complimentary cymbals to go with it.
Either way, seems like none of these companies were harmed.
I don't think Paiste had American distribution before they signed the deal with Ludwig so Ludwig was effectively bringing new competition for Zildjian into the US. Prior to that the only real competition to A Zildjian & Co. were the K. Zildjians that Gretsch was importing. In essence Ludwig, as sole US distributor for Paiste, became a competitor to Zildjian. Perhaps it wasn't wise of Zildjian to react as they did but it was, I think, taken personally by Avedis so business concerns were secondary.

Ludwig did offer Paiste cymbal packages along with their drum outfits in a couple of catalogs (71 and 73 if I remember right). I don't think they were the 602 models though but rather the Ludwig Standard ones. As far as I know they did not do that with Zildjians prior to that. I think the Zildjian deal was more to allow Ludwig dealers access to Zildjian cymbals, through Ludwig. Slingerland had a similar deal with Zildjians being in their catalog as well.
 

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K.O. said:
In his autobiography Bill Ludwig Jr. says that his dad (W.F.L. Senior) warned him that Avedis Zildjian (the man, not the company) would not be happy if Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste and would probably stop selling them cymbals. Ludwig Jr. didn't think Zildjian would be willing to drop one of their bigger distributors...but the old man (Ludwig Sr.) was right that the other old man (A. Zildjian) would be P.O.'d and do just that. So in addition to ALL the other headaches that the Paiste deal eventually caused Ludwig it also stopped them from being able to sell Zildjian products.
Great story, but I don't understand that logic. Is it not the benefit of Zildjian to have their cymbals go out with every Ludwig kit that is sold (not other way around)?
IF somebody comes in a shop for cymbals, they are not going to come out with a complimentary deal on drums. Rather, somebody wants to buy a drum kit, and comes out with a deal on complimentary cymbals to go with it.
Either way, seems like none of these companies were harmed.
I don't think Paiste had American distribution before they signed the deal with Ludwig so Ludwig was effectively bringing new competition for Zildjian into the US. Prior to that the only real competition to A Zildjian & Co. were the K. Zildjians that Gretsch was importing. In essence Ludwig, as sole US distributor for Paiste, became a competitor to Zildjian. Perhaps it wasn't wise of Zildjian to react as they did but it was, I think, taken personally by Avedis so business concerns were secondary.

Ludwig did offer Paiste cymbal packages along with their drum outfits in a couple of catalogs (71 and 73 if I remember right). I don't think they were the 602 models though but rather the Ludwig Standard ones. As far as I know they did not do that with Zildjians prior to that. I think the Zildjian deal was more to allow Ludwig dealers access to Zildjian cymbals, through Ludwig. Slingerland had a similar deal with Zildjians being in their catalog as well.
To conclude: Paiste became popular in US thanks to popularity and demand for Ludwig.
 

Bri6366

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snurf said:
In his autobiography Bill Ludwig Jr. says that his dad (W.F.L. Senior) warned him that Avedis Zildjian (the man, not the company) would not be happy if Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste and would probably stop selling them cymbals. Ludwig Jr. didn't think Zildjian would be willing to drop one of their bigger distributors...but the old man (Ludwig Sr.) was right that the other old man (A. Zildjian) would be P.O.'d and do just that. So in addition to ALL the other headaches that the Paiste deal eventually caused Ludwig it also stopped them from being able to sell Zildjian products.
Great story, but I don't understand that logic. Is it not the benefit of Zildjian to have their cymbals go out with every Ludwig kit that is sold (not other way around)?
IF somebody comes in a shop for cymbals, they are not going to come out with a complimentary deal on drums. Rather, somebody wants to buy a drum kit, and comes out with a deal on complimentary cymbals to go with it.
Either way, seems like none of these companies were harmed.
I don't think Paiste had American distribution before they signed the deal with Ludwig so Ludwig was effectively bringing new competition for Zildjian into the US. Prior to that the only real competition to A Zildjian & Co. were the K. Zildjians that Gretsch was importing. In essence Ludwig, as sole US distributor for Paiste, became a competitor to Zildjian. Perhaps it wasn't wise of Zildjian to react as they did but it was, I think, taken personally by Avedis so business concerns were secondary.

Ludwig did offer Paiste cymbal packages along with their drum outfits in a couple of catalogs (71 and 73 if I remember right). I don't think they were the 602 models though but rather the Ludwig Standard ones. As far as I know they did not do that with Zildjians prior to that. I think the Zildjian deal was more to allow Ludwig dealers access to Zildjian cymbals, through Ludwig. Slingerland had a similar deal with Zildjians being in their catalog as well.
To conclude: Paiste became popular in US thanks to popularity and demand for Ludwig.




Not because of the demand for Ludwig, which was high after Ringo appeared on TV in '64. It was because of artists like Carmine Appice, John Bonham, Clive Bunker, Ian Paice, etc., made Ludwig/Paiste such a definitive combination.
 

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Bri6366 said:
Not because of the demand for Ludwig, which was high after Ringo appeared on TV in '64. It was because of artists like Carmine Appice, John Bonham, Clive Bunker, Ian Paice, etc., made Ludwig/Paiste such a definitive combination.
Of course it played huge role, but Zidljians were out from Ludwig catalog in 1967. Why? I suppose they were not able to offer budget cymbals, and Ringo followers wanted something cheap.Ludwig standard cymbals took the market. And then rock revolution of late 60's early 70's when important was to break cymbal sound through the wall of amplifiers.
 

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Zidljians were out from Ludwig catalog in 1967. Why?
Because Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste in the mid 60's and that made (Mr.) Avedis Zildjian mad, so he stopped selling cymbals to Ludwig.
 

Carlos McSnurf

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K.O. said:
Zidljians were out from Ludwig catalog in 1967. Why?
Because Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste in the mid 60's and that made (Mr.) Avedis Zildjian mad, so he stopped selling cymbals to Ludwig.
But it didn't made John Bonham to not use Zildjians on probably first two LZ albums :)
And maybe later on either but it's really hard to hear that.
 

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I'm more inclined to believe that if he ever used a Zildjian then it was the first album only. Even then I agree with Johhny D and think the cymbals don't sound like Zildjians. I have a 602 ride(which sound just like Densmore's from the last Doors album) and it was with an 18" as well which I sold. The 18" sounded a lot like the cymbal sounds John was getting on Led Zeppelin II and the live stuff from 1969/70. I also find it funny how I saw a quote from Carmine Appice that he and John used Paiste because they wouldn't break. I love Paiste cymbals but IMO many of the old 602's are cracked somewhere(including my ride which was not done by me). Typically old Zildjians seem to be everywhere and a good many of them are not cracked. This pic of John is from a Led Zeppelin II recording. This sure looks like a Paiste to me....

 

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That pic is from the Zep II sessions in 1969. Looks like a Paiste 602 bell on that cymbal in his hand. Here is another from the same time that I had never seen until recently with a good shot of the bell on his ride.


1969-nyc-atlantic-johnbonham-744.jpg
 

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