John Bonham and Zildjian

ThomFloor

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Jdrum said:
That pic is from the Zep II sessions in 1969. Looks like a Paiste 602 bell on that cymbal in his hand. Here is another from the same time that I had never seen until recently with a good shot of the bell on his ride.

1969-nyc-atlantic-johnbonham-744.jpg
I'd bet on Paiste 602, but mostly just knowing or guessing JB's connection to them. How can you tell from the bell that its not a Zildjian?
 

Joe61

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One of the Zeppelin tunes we play is Rock and Roll. I never saw Bonham play that song. Does anyone know what cymbals he is pounding away on the entire song? Is he playing the hi hat or a single cymbal?

Thanks
 

Bri6366

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Joe61 said:
One of the Zeppelin tunes we play is Rock and Roll. I never saw Bonham play that song. Does anyone know what cymbals he is pounding away on the entire song? Is he playing the hi hat or a single cymbal?

Thanks
15" 2002 Hi Hats
 

ThomFloor

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The studio version on Led Zep IV was recorded in Dec 1970- Jan 1971...so thats pretty much pre-Paiste 2002 times. 2002's show up on the Houses of the Holy Record.
He plays mostly hats and one crash through the whole tune. Can get a bit of view live here, later days, 1979
 
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Jdrum

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ThomFloor said:
The studio version on Led Zep IV was recorded in Dec 1970- Jan 1971...so thats pretty much pre-Paiste 2002 times.
True. Ive always guessed he probably used the 15 602 SEs on Rock N Roll or could be the Giant Beats. Ive got a good quality printed photo cleary showing the 15 602 with the Sound Edge ink stamp with the rest being Giant Beats from 1971.



ThomFloor said:
That pic is from the Zep II sessions in 1969. Looks like a Paiste 602 bell on that cymbal in his hand. Here is another from the same time that I had never seen until recently with a good shot of the bell on his ride.

1969-nyc-atlantic-johnbonham-744.jpg
I'd bet on Paiste 602, but mostly just knowing or guessing JB's connection to them. How can you tell from the bell that its not a Zildjian?
Cant tell for sure from that photo but to me that looks like the exact bell and cymbal profile of a 602 in his hand and not a Giant Beat Bell shape. Im not up enough on old Zildjians to make a case for that. Ive got a photo somewhere with a side shot in the 60s with the natural maple kit that shows a good side view and close up of a cymbal that doesnt look like any Paiste bell. It looks like a taller domed bell. Maybe Zildjian. Ill post it if I get time to look and find it.
 

ThomFloor

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wflkurt said:
I remember seeing this Paiste contract with John from 1971. This has some pretty cool info.

http://www.rcivistalite.com/paiste.htm

Does anyone know any actual specif dates for recording Zeppelin IV? I was born on Dec 18 1970. Would be interesting if something they recorded was done on that day.
They started recording in Dec at Island Studios then moved to Henley Grange and were done by February.
December 18 1970 was a Friday....maybe they likely had left for the long weekend.
 

Bri6366

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The studio version on Led Zep IV was recorded in Dec 1970- Jan 1971...so thats pretty much pre-Paiste 2002 times. 2002's show up on the Houses of the Holy Record.
He plays mostly hats and one crash through the whole tune. Can get a bit of view live here, later days, 1979
You're right. When I think of Rock and Roll, I automatically think of The Song Remains the Same movie.
 

Johnny D

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wflkurt said:
I remember seeing this Paiste contract with John from 1971. This has some pretty cool info.

http://www.rcivistalite.com/paiste.htm

Does anyone know any actual specif dates for recording Zeppelin IV? I was born on Dec 18 1970. Would be interesting if something they recorded was done on that day.
You were born on my 10th birthday ;) Lots of great people were born on Dec 18th... besides us :)
 

Pounder

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K.O. said:
I really don't know anything about this topic but we should recall that Ludwig was distributing Paiste at that time and that may have prompted the initial switch.When Bonzo was getting fixed up with his new set of Ludwigs it may well have come with a new set of free Paistes as well. Other Ludwig endorsers made a switch to Paiste (at least briefly) due to this connection, including Joe Morello. That might have prompted the change although obviously Bonham heard or found something in the brand that kept him using them long after Ludwig and Paiste parted ways.
K.O. said:
Year after you can see "Ludwig imported cymbals" listed together with Zildjians in catalog.
Ludwig "imported" cymbals were made by Paiste. Then Paiste took over the cymbal deal for Ludwig distribution. Zildjians are gone from 1967 catalog.
By the late 60's big name endorsers who switched to Ludwigs also switched to Paiste (some remained with Zildjian like Mitchell or Baker)
In his autobiography Bill Ludwig Jr. says that his dad (W.F.L. Senior) warned him that Avedis Zildjian (the man, not the company) would not be happy if Ludwig signed a distribution deal with Paiste and would probably stop selling them cymbals. Ludwig Jr. didn't think Zildjian would be willing to drop one of their bigger distributors...but the old man (Ludwig Sr.) was right that the other old man (A. Zildjian) would be P.O.'d and do just that. So in addition to ALL the other headaches that the Paiste deal eventually caused Ludwig it also stopped them from being able to sell Zildjian products.
Good info here. Yeah I can imagine Zildjian double thinking the decision to break from Ludwig. Consider that Zildjian was winding-down its storied competition with in-family rivals over in Turkey at the same time Ludwig started featuring Paiste cymbals. So even as Zildjian was benefitting by the decline of (superior jazz cymbals in my opinion) K. Zildjian in Istanbul, they started getting hit by the onslaught of Paiste coming along by the Ludwig catalog featuring Paiste on the setups. Zildjian had been relatively ruling everything. Imagine having the one cymbal company that all the various drum companies use, then the primary company, Ludwig, going with the Swiss company. I would credit Ludwig for helping Paiste break into the market so quickly.

But lets' be real here: When Paiste 2002s came onto the market, the word on them had nothing to do with durability. In fact, durability of Paiste cymbals was in question. They were known to break faster than Zildjians. The B8 alloy dents easier and does crack easier. Bonham wasn't as heavy a hitter as he seemed though. The thing about Paiste cymbals--particularly 2002 series--was their "consistency of sound". One could break one and replace it with the same model and the cymbal had very close to exactly the same sound.

But I bet you anything Bonham used Paiste because it was so easy to do, and he dug their sound, but with his Ludwig contract, he could order the Paiste cymbals. I would be surprised if all the Ludwig endorsers didn't automatically have the Paiste endorsement simultaneously.
 

toddlittle827

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Some points on all of this from someone who spends way too much free time delving into the murky depths of early Paiste history.

While it states in the Paiste Profiles Book that Bonham started using Paiste in 1970... chances are that is when he became an official Paiste endorser and the quote is a little twisted. It is almost certain he was using Giant Beats well before then even if he did have some As around the time of the first Zep album.

A Ludwig and/or Paiste deal would not automatically mean you had to use the other product. Ludwig only distributed Paiste in the USA not in other parts of the world. So a British (or French... whatever) drummer would still have been more prone at the time (imo) to use Paiste over Zildjian due to the availability factor, regardless of what brand kit they were using. Now, an American Ludwig endorser would have been more likely to be pushed to use Paiste to help Ludwig sales of the cymbals in the USA.


As for the "Ludwig" Paiste cymbals those go back to 1957 and those were made for Ludwig. Ludwig did not sell any other Paiste products at that time (1957-1964). They started distributing the Formula 602s in the USA in 1965 (and later other lines like Giant Beat and Stanoples - which were most likely rebranded Dixies) . So factor that timing into the equation of the Ludwig Zildjian relationship. My understanding is Zildjian got pissed and pulled their cymbals from Ludwig when they saw that Ludwig displayed some 602s in its booth at NAMM in the Summer of 1964. It was after that Ludwig started moving actual Paiste-branded products. It didn't have anything to do with the "Ludwig Standard" cymbals, Ludwig had carried those for 7 years alongside the As without any issue.

In regards to Paiste breakage, a lot of that had to do with Ludwig pushing the 602s to rock drummers (prior to Giant Beat which Ludwig didn't offer until 1969) who had an easy time smashing up cymbals that weren't really meant for rock especially the Thin 602s. Best I can tell, Ludwig never carried 2002s (the deal between the two companies was over by 1971 (actually by 1970) from what I have heard from some Paiste employees - Ludwig just sold off previously stocked cymbals for a few more years) so they never had to replace any broken 2002s.
 
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JazzDrumGuy

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Recording started in Dec. 1970 - "The band started to record the album at Basing Street Studios in London. Jethro Tull was recording Aqualung there at the same time."

So maybe if you can figure out when Aqualung was recorded, it may help. I could not find more info about it.

Fun fact (I didn't know!): “Four Sticks” got its title because Bonham played with four drumsticks on it. He decided to do that after getting frustrated over the song not sounding right with just two sticks. He grabbed another set and hit the drums as hard as he could, recording the perfect take.
 

Ludwig26

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Before Led Zeppelin,
Bonham was playing in "Band of Joy" with Plant & either before or after he played with Tim Rose. With both bands &his earlier bands he played a green sparkle Ludwig 4pc kit : 22", 13" 16&5" LM400 Supra phonic. He may or may not have used either Paste 602's or Giant Beats (if Paiste more than likely 602's before '67) , or Zildjian. When joining Zeppelin Peter Grant as part of debt owed to him by the Yardbirds rescinded, there equipment including Jim MCarthy's Slingerland kit. There are photos of this kit on the net. He used Rogers Swivomatic cymbal stands, with the Slingerland kit. The bdp kit was a rental kit as was the bdp Ludwig kit which was :24" 13,16&18, as he couldn't get a 26" as the largest kick drum Ludwig made/offered was 24"
26's were marching drums&specifically ordered for both Appice&Bonham.According to Fredie Struder (Paiste sound development) , Bonham visited Paiste in the late 60's while Zeppelin were touring in Europe. This detail/info is in Rythmm magazine 40th anniversary of Led Zeppelin IV. The cymbals on '69 RAH are both 15" pre-serial 602 se& Giant Beat, with an additional 602 20" medium ride used as a crash. IV was both 602 or 15" GB hats& 18&20, 24" cymbals, a mate of mine has a photo framed of him standing behind Bonzo's kit in February '72 at Kooyong Stadium Melbourne. In it you can clearly see underneath the cymbals,
If they're 2002's the black PAISTE logo would be both clearly shown. He's a good mate of late& great Colin Floors known as Cozy Powell,
Both were from Redditch (Worcester) UK/England.Powell was using Zildjians as well as Paiste, both were extremely angry, annoyed&dissapointed &pissed off that Paiste discontinued the GB's in '71. From IV on: combination of 602's, GB's&2002's.He (Bonham) actually preferred&liked the sound of &durability of Paiste compared to Zildjian,
The influence of both Appice&Powell also contributed as well as part of his Ludwig endorsement.
 

Toast Tee

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Bonham, from everything I've read, and interviews I've seen, was very particular about his sound.
He would not use a brand new snare head for a gig, always used Emperors/Ambassadors in the studio, and Dots on his Vista's.
I have very little doubt he used Paiste, as they achieved the sound he wanted.
 

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