K Zildjian Istanbul find with vintage pearl bop kit

musicman64

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
312
Reaction score
63
Location
Green Valley, Arizona
Found a listing last weekend for a " drum set with rack Got there and found a Pearl 18", 10" and 14" ...good....gibraltar rack with box{20+} clamps and tubes...good...then as I was packing them up..seller said" take the snare drum and cymbals over there, pointing to the corner of the room. I pick up the snare..Imperialstar king beat...then the cymbals 70's A Zildjian 20" light ride, a trashed splash{trash} , and then a K Zildjian Istanbul heavy 16". So..am I right in thinking {by the stamp}..that this is a 50's-60's Istanbul. Any comments welcome..ThanksP1030252.JPGP1030253.JPG
P1030252.JPG
P1030253.JPG
P1030258.JPG
P1030258.JPG
 

JDA

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
12,820
Reaction score
2,172
Location
Jeannette, Pa.

Old K Istanbul stamp like a Type III (I say like because there is IIIa IIIb and IIIc
looks like a 1953-56
nonetheless I know what it sounds like; )
 
Last edited:

Elvis

The King of Rock'n'Roll
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
11,834
Reaction score
747
Location
Poulsbo, Wa.
jOe,

Wouldn't it be more like '50-'53, with the "Kzildjian" lining up at the bottom of the word?

400105


...looks like '53-'56, the "Kzildjian" lines up more on top of the letters....

400106


I don't know, you know more about these than I do. I'm just going off the pics.
 

Tama CW

Very well Known Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,495
Reaction score
711
Location
SE Connecticut
Looks 3B to me based off the star inside the moon, "IN" letters being identical in height, crooked K, and "Zildjian" being smaller than "ISTANBUL." Mid-50's. Probably 1953-56. Not much difference in price between the 3a or 3b anyways. These do bring considerably more than the 60's newer stamps. Weights matter too. A heavy 16 wouldn't be as desirable to me than a medium, medium thin or thin. Maybe it was made as a 16" ride? That could be cool. Nice find though.

What does it weigh?
 
Last edited:

JDA

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
12,820
Reaction score
2,172
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
.. just cymbals.. by weight and by diameter. Comparable if you have to, to medium ride, thin ride, medium-thin-ride, heavy ride- in Avedis speak -but not purpose-built ( like Avedis) to Drum Set specifics (if anything all "just") orchestral- cymbals
 
Last edited:

Tama CW

Very well Known Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,495
Reaction score
711
Location
SE Connecticut
Gotcha. I probably should have said that it may have been "selected" by a previous owner to be used as a small ride cymbal.

But it can also be said that the cymbal smith made this heavy 16" with some "purpose" in mind. And by a heavy, medium, thin and everything in between, they are in fact targeting possible functions for said cymbal(s) (ie ride, crash, orchestral, hats, band, etc.). I ran across of pair of fairly close weighted medium thin 14's in the 3b that were living in an old grade school band closet. What use were those for? Maybe hand crashes for band? Less likely they were hi hats.
 
Last edited:

hardbat

Very well Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
838
Reaction score
164
Location
Sacramento CA, USA
Although it's an istanbul K, it looks for all intents and purposes essentially the same as the older Constantinople Ks, with the small irregular bell, heavy weight, fat hammering, and tiger-striping wear on the bottom. It could have been made at an earlier date, but stamped in the early 50s -- I've read that that happened sometimes. If you can find a matching one, that would be a killer orchestral pair. Other than that, it's a bit hard to find a use. Maybe as a heavy-metal crash!?
 

JDA

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
12,820
Reaction score
2,172
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
jOe,

Wouldn't it be more like '50-'53, with the "Kzildjian" lining up at the bottom of the word?

View attachment 400105

...looks like '53-'56, the "Kzildjian" lines up more on top of the letters....

View attachment 400106

I don't know, you know more about these than I do. I'm just going off the pics.
Right. I really don't "care" (pay attention ) defining years once they get into that III and earlier zone.
That is an early one.

Bottom hi hat... left side to a 22"...Can always have "fun" with "any" any old K..
there's no "richer" in texture cymbal ever anywhere from any one. Nothing-I'm convinced- been convinced- has the depth of an old K Zildjian. They are Zildjians Made in Turkey ; all that's needed to know. Well sums it up. They are definitely Zildjians. And I love (every one of) em till death do us part ; Zildjian Rich in tone & depth. 90% other cymbals are toys comparatively.
Only trouble is 'Choice, finding them, affording them, mixing them together. Other than that...there's no richer sounding cymbal anywhere. You just "can't get them" and there's "no choice" on the matter of what you find..(40 years after their demise..)
They are rich in tone like drums themselves. equal. maybe surpassing. equal in tone to any legendary drum..
Oddly US Avedis Zildjian with all their innovative and progressive means of manufacture come closest (in sometimes un-obvious ways)
Almost confirming there is a Zildjian secret..
Modern Turkish makers making cymbals "as they used to", for forty years since 1980, are in lot of ways "further away'...
Pretty confounding isn't it.
tells me Modern Zildjian -when dealing with reproducing modern Ks and a Zildjian in general- - are more attuned to 'sound' and not reproducing the means of manufacture (and claiming that as) some type of connection to old Ks.

In another words (US) Zildjian (in manufacture) is using the ears. Modern Turk makers (Bos etc) are using (in manufacture) the 'hands'. . when it comes to making a K today.. the ears have it.. imo.
In more words Today, I can have a 50% computer made (from Avedis) cymbal sound closer to a old K than a modern 100% handmade (from the post-1980 Turks) cymbal does.
Avedis US Zildjian has the brains. Modern Turks the 'romance'.
Modern Turks don't ever (in some respects) sound like old Ks. Machine orchestrated Avedis K's can be sometimes closer, very close.

That's some weird- it's a Zildjian thing- sheeit right there.
 
Last edited:

JDA

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
12,820
Reaction score
2,172
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
Found a listing last weekend for a " drum set with rack Got there and found a Pearl 18", 10" and 14" ...good....gibraltar rack with box{20+} clamps and tubes...good...then as I was packing them up..seller said" take the snare drum and cymbals over there, pointing to the corner of the room. I pick up the snare..Imperialstar king beat...then the cymbals 70's A Zildjian 20" light ride, a trashed splash{trash} , and then a K Zildjian Istanbul heavy 16". So..am I right in thinking {by the stamp}..that this is a 50's-60's Istanbul. Any comments welcome..ThanksView attachment 400054View attachment 400055View attachment 400054View attachment 400055View attachment 400056View attachment 400056
what you have to do (in displaying etc) that cymbal is Give an entire- level- side- view

To profile the profile (duh) cup height etc.

Only a plain clear side view will do that Good Luck!
"Balance on a middle finger" shot! Picture shot.
That cup height is prolly lower,..... than it looks in the pics you posted.

Last old K I bought, was a type IV 16" and when I opened the box, the way the cymbal was sitting, I thought it was a Flat Ride...the cup was so low... Typical in old Stamps. And ever so lovely.
 

zenstat

Senior Cymbal Nerd
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
4,169
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Auckland New Zealand
jOe,

Wouldn't it be more like '50-'53, with the "Kzildjian" lining up at the bottom of the word?

View attachment 400105

...looks like '53-'56, the "Kzildjian" lines up more on top of the letters....

View attachment 400106

I don't know, you know more about these than I do. I'm just going off the pics.
Elvis,

You have included images from Rob Scott's site without giving the full reference and Rob Scott's text which emphasizes not the large K alignment but the relative size of the bottom Zildjian as the way to Rob distinguishes Hartrick Type IIIa from IIIb. Even then Rob acknowledges difficulties with his ability to distinguish IIIa from IIIb:

The font for the bottom word “Zildjian” grew taller in this stamp. This is the only difference I’ve ever been able to see and it makes this stamp difficult to distinguish.
Alas Joe has linked to Rob Scott's site as well although it fails to acknowledge that Rob got his info from Bill Hartrick but gave Bill no credit. Rob Scott's site is now some years out of date as it stopped being maintained in 2012. We've moved on from there.

http://robscott.net/projects

The claims about the positioning of the large K relative to the ZILDJIAN as being the key diagnostic attribute to distinguish Hartrick Type IIIa from IIIb have not stood up to scientific testing. I've worked through the detailed attributes and illustrate some in this (rather large) image. The pattern on the stamp the OP showed is a best fit to 3B. But as Joe says the precise sup type doesn't matter to him that much within the early ones. It doesn't matter that much to me either. What does matter to me is misinformation.



Apologies for the red annotations and size of this image. After I created it I discovered that the red bleeds a bit and becomes unclear. I haven't yet been back to redraft a new one.
 

JDA

DFO Master
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
12,820
Reaction score
2,172
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
I first linked to your site page Zen but the Scott site was simpler for others to see quickly and easily.
__

If anyone by now doesn't know Bill Hartrick Drumaholic (available at Vintage Drum Forum .com) established every last bit of the Old K and Old Stamp timeline . The Terminology used around the Globe, Well here to fore be it declared Its All Drumaholics work.

Every last bit of it comes and came from Bill Hartricks aka Drumaholic work and research.
Excuse me for assuming Everyone knew that Drumaholic invented the terms and timelines for old K and A's.

There. That was three Hail Marys.
I'm absolved of all further sin on the subject
 
Last edited:

jptrickster

DFO Master
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
9,273
Reaction score
2,213
Location
Fairfield County
Although it's an istanbul K, it looks for all intents and purposes essentially the same as the older Constantinople Ks, with the small irregular bell, heavy weight, fat hammering, and tiger-striping wear on the bottom. It could have been made at an earlier date, but stamped in the early 50s -- I've read that that happened sometimes. If you can find a matching one, that would be a killer orchestral pair. Other than that, it's a bit hard to find a use. Maybe as a heavy-metal crash!?
I totally agree, useful as a bottom hat or better yet , well suited as an orchestral crash cymbal as it was most likely intended especially given the wear pattern on the bottom.
Should be fairly easy to match up , plenty of 16’s out there to be had.

 

Elvis

The King of Rock'n'Roll
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
11,834
Reaction score
747
Location
Poulsbo, Wa.
Zenatat,

From Rob Scott's Cymbal Stamp Tiimelines website, particularly, the page on the K.Zildjian Timeline.
Scott's comment concerning the IIIa stamp, "The Moon becomes thinner for in this stamp, and the word Zildjian is bottom-aligned with the letter K.
The word “in” from “Made in Turkey” also appeared smaller on the preceding stamps.
"
I highlighted part of the quote to draw your attention to the fact that it was that aspect that he commented on that was the point of my post.
Apologies for not acknowledging Mr. Scott on the usagae of his material, but its a common thing to happen on an internet forum, regardless of who and/or where the information stems from.
No need to point it out.
 


Top