Large drums tuned up project better and record better not using close mic setup

[Frank Godiva]

This video eventually gets around to demonstrating this, comparing 13 16 to 15 18 at the same tuning.

 

[trynberg]

Works for live playing too!

 

[bpaluzzi]

I don’t see anything in there comparing it to close mics.

I think there are two similar, but fundamentally different claims being proposed:
1 - when using a minimal mic’ing technique, having bigger drums tuned up higher works better for getting a specific type of sound. (Agreed, and this isn’t any new knowledge. This is the well known “secret” to the Bonham sound)
2 - when using bigger drums tuned up, it’s better to use a minimal mic’ing technique versus using close mics. (Disagree, and he offers zero support of this in the video)

 

[DamnSingerAlsoDrums]

Better is relative... I quite liked the sound of the 12 and 16.

I record with a very similar setup at home and I will get useable sounds out of any muffling stages, from wide open to a Huggies diaper and half-a-roll of tape per drum... it's all a matter of what the song needs and how you process it afterwards. But of course if you want to do the whole Bonham thing with just a bit of saturation, parralel comp and not much else, then yeah, big drums tuned up might be better at doing that.

 

[Frank Godiva]

Works for live playing too!

Exactly. When not under the mic; one needs to project the sound to the audience

Buddy was rarely run through a PA and tuned the drums up to project as explained by Ken Loomer

 

[jmcohen]

Better is relative... I quite liked the sound of the 12 and 16.

I record with a very similar setup at home and I will get useable sounds out of any muffling stages, from wide open to a Huggies diaper and half-a-roll of tape per drum... it's all a matter of what the song needs and how you process it afterwards. But of course if you want to do the whole Bonham thing with just a bit of saturation, parralel comp and not much else, then yeah, big drums tuned up might be better at doing that.

Huggies!! Yeah!!!

 

[Houndog]

Huggies!! Yeah!!!

I use the Depends I didn’t pee in the night before ….

 

[CSR]

I use the Depends I didn’t pee in the night before ….

I use those on my cymbals to get a nice dry sound.

 

[CherryClassic]

Well it all Depends on the room size whether or not to use Depends.

sherm LOL

 

[Whitten]

It's nonsense.
This is the problem with 'everyone on the internet is an expert'.
I made a record with Glyn Johns. He used his four mic technique. There was NEVER any discussion about how the drums should be tuned, or what sizes should be used, I just set up my regular kit (which was Yam Rec Custom 12, 13, 16" with 22" bass drum). The biggest two things about the four mic drum technique are 1) the room (it has to sound great, big or small) and your internal balance. The four mics can't fix loud hi-hat playing, or toms being played at half the volume of your snare.
That's it.
Glyn developed his set up when drummers played less hard. I think it does work better if you play like a 70's drummer, fuller, with finesse. Even John Bonham wasn't as loud as Kenny Aronoff or Dave Grohl.
I probably played overall too loud when I worked with Glyn (late 80's). But he never asked me to change the drums or retune to suit his set up.

 

[ThomFloor]

It's nonsense.
This is the problem with 'everyone on the internet is an expert'.
I made a record with Glyn Johns. He used his four mic technique. There was NEVER any discussion about how the drums should be tuned, or what sizes should be used, I just set up my regular kit (which was Yam Rec Custom 12, 13, 16" with 22" bass drum). The biggest two things about the four mic drum technique are 1) the room (it has to sound great, big or small) and your internal balance. The four mics can't fix loud hi-hat playing, or toms being played at half the volume of your snare.
That's it.
Glyn developed his set up when drummers played less hard. I think it does work better if you play like a 70's drummer, fuller, with finesse. Even John Bonham wasn't as loud as Kenny Aronoff or Dave Grohl.
I probably played overall too loud when I worked with Glyn (late 80's). But he never asked me to change the drums or retune to suit his set up.

Interesting. Am curious what record was that? Would like to hear the sounds.
There is that much difference of a "70's drummer"? I mean I understand drum sounds differed (gated snare etc.) but people playing all that different.

 

[trynberg]

It's nonsense.

What part is nonsense? It's clearly audible in the video how much fuller and resonant the larger toms tuned higher are.

It's also clear and obvious in live acoustic situations that larger drums tuned higher project better than smaller drums tuned low.

So what part of the video exactly is nonsense?

 

[bpaluzzi]

What part is nonsense? It's clearly audible in the video how much fuller and resonant the larger toms tuned higher are.

It's also clear and obvious in live acoustic situations that larger drums tuned higher project better than smaller drums tuned low.

So what part of the video exactly is nonsense?

The part that there’s any ”correct” way to do it.

The video is trying to claim that it’s always better to use high tuned, open drums for Glyn Johns. And that’s just not true.

 

[dboomer]

Not commenting on this video, but in general close micing does not sound what a drum sounds like from a few feet away (your head when playing).

When you close mic the mic ends up very near the rim of the drum. To me that is the very worst possible sound coming from a drum as the harmonics become a much larger part of the sound and the fundamental becomes proportionally less. Tap the rim and tap the center of a drum … which sound do you want?

That is not necessarily a bad thing as you usually end up with a bunch of electronic modifiers available and can greatly alter the raw mic’d sound. But the raw sound from the mic is not putting the best face forward in my opinion.

YMMV

 

[bpaluzzi]

Not commenting on this video, but in general close micing does not sound what a drum sounds like from a few feet away (your head when playing).

When you close mic the mic ends up very near the rim of the drum. To me that is the very worst possible sound coming from a drum as the harmonics become a much larger part of the sound and the fundamental becomes proportionally less. Tap the rim and tap the center of a drum … which sound do you want?

That is not necessarily a bad thing as you usually end up with a bunch of electronic modifiers available and can greatly alter the raw mic’d sound. But the raw sound from the mic is not putting the best face forward in my opinion.

YMMV

If your mics are pointed at the rim (or just inside), your mics are positioned wrong, IMO. Mics should be pointed at the center of the head. Even if the mic is physically near the edge of the drum, it shouldn’t be “looking” there. That’s one of the major problems I have with the 604-style mic clips.

 

[dboomer]

If your mics are pointed at the rim (or just inside), your mics are positioned wrong, IMO. Mics should be pointed at the center of the head. Even if the mic is physically near the edge of the drum, it shouldn’t be “looking” there. That’s one of the major problems I have with the 604-style mic clips.

Agreed, however I think the problem is you can't get a good angle with anything I’ve found that is mounted to a rim. Even if you could the ratio of edge to center pickup isn’t gonna be great because of proximity pattern be damned.

 

[bpaluzzi]

Agreed, however I think the problem is you can't get a good angle with anything I’ve found that is mounted to a rim. Even if you could the ratio of edge to center pickup isn’t gonna be great because of proximity pattern be damned.

I think small condensers generally work better for this than clip-mounted dynamics. Have never had an issue positioning Beta98 / Beta98Amp / DM20.

 

[gbow]

Yea, both sounds were good, either one processed by a good engineer/producer and put in the mix would sound great.

To me the point of the video is a bit different than what most people see, it's that you CAN get good drum recordings from 4 average mics, a small/cheap USB interface, average mic preamps into any DAW.

Further, I agree with Whitten in that Glyn himself did not require, suggest, or recommend larger drums tuned higher or any drum configuration. These larger drums tuned higher sound great and I too sometimes use that configuration, as do smaller drums tuned properly. The choice of heads will make just as big of a difference.

Keep playing drums, having fun, and experimenting with different recording techniques, it's a really fun thing to do.

gabo

 

[Cauldronics]

Agreed, however I think the problem is you can't get a good angle with anything I’ve found that is mounted to a rim. Even if you could the ratio of edge to center pickup isn’t gonna be great because of proximity pattern be damned.

Actually, even with the dreaded e604 clip on mic, I can get a good sound just by raising and angling the mics high in the bracket and pointed so the diaphragm is looking directly at the center of the drum. The problem I hear is when people use these mics too close to the drum or at misguided angles or both.

There is an issue with their design, though. They don't work as well on larger toms (generally above 14) because eventually a better sound is captured by moving the mic further over the edge (and still pointing at the center of the head) than you would on a smaller tom, and at a certain point, you no longer can with an e604 setup. The shape and size of the clip, together with the mic, will not reach over a larger area.

That said, I try to avoid using e604s on clips when possible. There's a lot of wiggle involved when a tom is struck, especially on modern iso-mounts. Do you ears and head wiggle around every time a drum is struck? No. Then neither should the microphone, which is acting like an ear next to the drum. However, this is minutiae in real world application. Clip on mics are used everyday with great results in live music. In studio situations, you do see them, but I don't think as much. Generally I see toms mics on stands.

 

[JimmyM]

What part is nonsense? It's clearly audible in the video how much fuller and resonant the larger toms tuned higher are.

It's also clear and obvious in live acoustic situations that larger drums tuned higher project better than smaller drums tuned low.

So what part of the video exactly is nonsense?

For me it was the implication that the smaller toms don’t sound good. They sound great to me. Wouldn’t say better than the bigger drums, but just as good.