Shout so much?Why do you shout so much? Shouting doesn't make you right. If you find it difficult to get your point across without shouting maybe you should take a step back and look in the mirror.
It might seem that way... but you're making assumptions that a beginners short history with rudiments is going level the playing field between the hands. For example, i've been playing for 50 years - and my training and playing experience has still not leveled the playing field between my hands. My best grade A ride pattern (HH or ride cym) comes from my right hand.... for much the same reason as I still throw a ball, use a fork, write my name and wield a hammer better with my right hand.From day one we are taught to practice our rudiments righty and lefty. This means that our hands already have the training to execute the same patterns. This also means that it shouldn't take years to learn parts of a song where the left hand may intermittently lead.
I think it's more of a mental challenge than a physical one but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't try. I also think it's a shame to assume that a beginner couldn't pick up an ambidextrous way of playing if they were given the right instruction and practice routine.
Just out of curiosity... why do violinists and guitarist do the important fingering with the non-dominant hand?My reasoning is based not on positioning - which while not ideal - has little importance as to a players sound and feel. Or more importantly for a student to develop a good sound and feel.
As some one quoted Kenny Aronoff saying (in another thread) "It is ALL about the HH" - which to paraphrase from a more fundamental perspective - "It is all about the ride cymbal - HH pattern". How a player plays the ride or the hi hat part - the "glue" part - literally defines the feel of their playing.
It takes hours upon hours - stretching into years - to develop the ability to play a great feeling HH/ride feel. It demands tons of control and variation over dynamics (accents) and entails playing two to four times as many notes as any other limb is required to play on average.
This is simply the most physically demanding undertaking that lays firmly between a young player sounding decent and well... like a beginner.
So logically speaking - if our choice of which hand should be tasked with job initially is between one hand that can throw a baseball, write cursive, throw darts, hammer a nail, sink a three pointer and feed our student with a fork... a one that... can't. Doesn't it only make sense to use the hand absolutely most suited to the task???
Of course it does. The only reasoning that would lead one not to would come under-appreciating just how important and critical the ride/hh hand's job is. And how critically important it is sounding and feeling good.
Positioning IMO should be the least of our concerns regarding this.
Again "It's all about the High Hat!"
Or maybe better - "It's all about The Hand that plays the hi hat".
And the best hand for that job is... the student's dominant hand.
This is the thing... and it's a not uncommon trap and failing of too many teachers...Just out of curiosity... why do violinists and guitarist do the important fingering with the non-dominant hand?
One hand may be dominant, but it doesn't mean it's any more "musical" than the other... especially if one hand/limb is continually favored with double the amount of play/development. However, what were talking about here is "adaptation." I believe the neophyte can readily adapt to open-handed playing, especially in the early stages when the movement is pretty coarse and not yet refined. I would be extremely interested to see how somebody with zero exposure to the instrument - I'm talking no prior visuals at all / never-ever - would approach the HH when first placed behind the kit.
As you state in your rebuttal that it "entails playing two to four times as many notes as any other limb is required to play on average." That fact is what motivates me to learn the OH style and develop the neglected left, and helps to manage frustration when I first started the OH process and continue to develop the skills. After a few months I have a pretty good "rocking" motion (to produce those Garibaldi accented 1/8's, and steady 16th's) which took me far, far longer with the right hand. I can concede that this isn't the best comparison as I already put a ton of work in on the dominant side and I could quickly synthesize/apply the prior knowledge and skill to the non-dominant.
But if shouting is rude... how would you characterize your post? You jump in with both feet making this about a character flaw... my character flaw. Why?
I mean, you could've simply pointed it out to me - instead you start with an accusatory question, followed by an admonishment, and concluded that my behavior was so egregious as to require self-reflection.
You're a big boy now. You can handle being told - it's what you do best. Have a great day. Be cool.I mean, you could've simply pointed it out to me - instead you start with an accusatory question, followed by an admonishment, and concluded that my behavior was so egregious as to require self-reflection. Granted if you had pointed it out politely and I reacted poorly, then that would absolutely be on me. But you didn't, I don't know why you didn't. But you didn't.
So again - more personal attacks - rather than just discussing the topic like adults.You're a big boy now. You can handle being told - it's what you do best. Have a great day. Be cool.
Exactly how it's done IMO Kudos.I didn't learn open handed playing until I was almost 40 and ,to this day, I only actually use my left lead for certain songs. The best thing that stayed with me is that I became open handed with my fills , crashes, and sticking in general.
With my beginner students, I let them start with their dominant hand (generally right) and after they have learned basic playing on the kit I will throw in some left hand lead...and they soak it up like a sponge! Down the road I bring them into the "New Breed" book with some of the systems revised so they can be played on a standard set up.
I don't think this is anything new because we have all been taught from the beginning in parade drumming to play the rudiments "hand to hand".
Yes, you are harsh (while not seeming "sorry" for it at all), but maybe your biscuit got burned because of errors on my part, not this instructor's approach. To try to pour some water on this fire, I went back to him to clarify his approach. This was what I originally said:Sorry but IMO that's about the stupidest, most irresponsible thing one could do to a young student.
Yes there are a few - and I mean literally ONLY a few - that play this way like Simon, etc. But most like Billy and Lenny came to this BECAUSE THEY ARE LEFT HANDED!!!!! And did it to adapt to a world of sitting in and subbing on right handed drum sets.
So this teacher - ON PURPOSE - sets these students up for having a harder time qualifying for a high school marching snare drum line.... sets them up to have to deal with the same workarounds that Lenny and Billy had to deal with - and all for what???? To not have to crossover when playing the hi hat??!?!?!?!???? Because that's it. That's the single only advantage to playing open handed.
And don't get me wrong - players as they progress should absolutely work on their ability to expand their orchestration chops - which invariably includes working on open-handiness.
But to shoot a beginner in the foot - by ignoring handiness - in the naive belief that if they can work through that self imposed handicap they will be better players down the road is IMO just simply BAD TEACHING. It is hard enough and rare enough for a student to actually make it through the hump from beginner to intermediate/advanced with all their fundamentals in place without purposefully making it harder.
Sorry to be so harsh - but I'm sorry but "teachers" that so casually throw out decades upon decades of pedagogical tradition based on their egotistical belief that "they know better" just light me up big time.
So per Dan's original topic - yes, everyone should explore this. But any teacher that even imagines pondering going against handiness, when pulling out the Haskell Hard book on a student's first day shouldn't be teaching period IMO.
I s'think it may be 'too early' to decide for themselves and could may be confusing... a reason One attribute- is to have the bass drum come down on the same side as the lead hand. When you break that- say right foot bass Left hand cymbal- there is a 'disconnect" that can work to advantage, but also has some dis advantage..as far as...weight..in zee notes...but even if 4 way independence is mastered (each limb getting 25%) (versus a 50%/50% approach..say) ..one still has to decide- and I think this should be done way later on- how they want to play. It's an extra burden introducing (that) too early I think/ maybe...he simply makes sure they try different approaches so they can decide for themselves
(sorry I had to clip the quote for length)Yes, you are harsh (while not seeming "sorry" for it at all), but maybe your biscuit got burned because of errors on my part, not this instructor's approach. To try to pour some water on this fire, I went back to him to clarify his approach. This was what I originally said:
A local drum teacher who teaches students of all levels/abilities told me that if he has an absolute beginner (who is right handed), he teaches them open-handed/matched grip/left hand lead on a righty kit from the get-go. It makes more sense in the long run.
I misremembered what he told me I am to blame for that. I just checked with him and this is what he does when he gets new students who are absolute beginners. (His drum set teaching takes place on a standard, right-handed set up - nothing special or unconventional in any way.) If they are left-handed, he sets them up to play open-handed. If they are right-handed, he has them try playing both right- and left-hand lead and then lets them then choose which option they prefer. He does not force anyone to learn in a manner they don't want to use, he simply makes sure they try different approaches so they can decide for themselves - there is no forcing a square peg into a round hole. Traditional grip, matched grip, right-hand lead, left-hand lead - he teaches it all based on the student's preference.