Ludwig Bass Drum Question, thoughts?

funkypoodle

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I have this Champagne Sparkle bass drum on the way to me. The seller notes "Has the factory white painted interior, and has a date stamp but it’s hard to read, see last pic. Looks like it might be Sep 11 1968? The badge number indicates that it’s from 1968. Factory drilled for two disappearing spurs."

Is it odd to see disappearing spurs (instead of gullwings) in '68? Could the shell have been built in the earlier in the factory until '68? Also, I'm wondering whether this could have been a virgin kick. The diamond mount is slightly crooked, but there's no sign of a previous rail mount. That's obviously a 70's back plastic T on the mount. Back in those days stores would also do custom mount installations of your choice. What are your thoughts? Home installed? Store installed? Ludwig on a Friday afternoon?
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PS: I'm totally not trying to 'nit-pick'! I'm just curious (as usual). I got this at a totally fair price IMO & it will be a player so the mount, with a ball-style single tom mount, will be quite useful.

PPS: Which Precision wrap will be the closest match for inlays?

Thanks for any thoughts, rants or funny anecdotes!
 

mlayton

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May have been a virgin bass originally. I don't see any signs of a rail or cymbal mount. The dual tom mount does look just a bit oddly placed. The disappearing spurs were optional. My '67 18" bass drum has them. Common to see them on Club Date bass drums and Down Beats as well.

Mike
 

K.O.

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Gull wings were the standard spurs at the time but the disappearing spurs were still in the catalog (and remained so up until at least the mid 70s) so it's not that unusual to see them on a 60s drum. Probably it was the preference of the original buyer of the drum or possibly a penny pinching choice of a Ludwig dealer ordering stock for his store. Gull wings, at least in my experience, don't function that much better than disappearing spurs so a drummer of the day might have preferred to stick with the older design.
 

cochlea

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Gull wings were the standard spurs at the time but the disappearing spurs were still in the catalog (and remained so up until at least the mid 70s) so it's not that unusual to see them on a 60s drum. Probably it was the preference of the original buyer of the drum or possibly a penny pinching choice of a Ludwig dealer ordering stock for his store. Gull wings, at least in my experience, don't function that much better than disappearing spurs so a drummer of the day might have preferred to stick with the older design.
My '65 Super Classic came with disappearing spurs rather than the more common gull wing spurs of that era. My cousin, who was the original owner, doesn't recall specifying this when he ordered the kit. Either the shop owner or someone at Ludwig made this decision. As I previously mentioned, I wish it had the gull wing spurs, just to make it more like Ringo's Shea Stadium kit. However, I must admit that the disappearing spurs work really well. They stay in place, once extended, and do a nice job of keeping the bass drum stable.
 

funkypoodle

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My '65 Super Classic came with disappearing spurs rather than the more common gull wing spurs of that era. My cousin, who was the original owner, doesn't recall specifying this when he ordered the kit. Either the shop owner or someone at Ludwig made this decision. As I previously mentioned, I wish it had the gull wing spurs, just to make it more like Ringo's Shea Stadium kit. However, I must admit that the disappearing spurs work really well. They stay in place, once extended, and do a nice job of keeping the bass drum stable.
Gull wings were the standard spurs at the time but the disappearing spurs were still in the catalog (and remained so up until at least the mid 70s) so it's not that unusual to see them on a 60s drum. Probably it was the preference of the original buyer of the drum or possibly a penny pinching choice of a Ludwig dealer ordering stock for his store. Gull wings, at least in my experience, don't function that much better than disappearing spurs so a drummer of the day might have preferred to stick with the older design.
The gull wings, albeit classy looking, aren't my favourite design. As well as being not that stable, I don't find that they raise the front bottom lugs high enough. I'm happy to hear that you both think disappearing spurs work well. I was contemplating clip-ons , (fugly IMO) Atlas spurs or Atlas mounts with the gull wings from my 22" super classic, but if the disappearing spurs are gig-worthy I'll start with that. Hopefully they will manage the weight of a 13" as I'm pairing together with my SC tom/floor. I'm also hopeful that the Champagne will match. With shipping being what it is these days I won't know for a while....
 

K.O.

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It is important to remember that the primary purpose of early spur designs was to prevent the bass drum from rolling over more than to prevent it from creeping forward. Also lifting the front of the bass drum off the floor wasn't really an intended function of them either. These are needs that modern spurs address (some of them anyway) that were either not done or handled in other ways back in the day.

I don't think either of Ludwig's spur designs they had in the 60s were really intended to do much more than prevent the bass drum from rolling. You can get a bit of lift out of either but not to any great degree. They sold bass drum anchors to help keep the drum from sliding forward or resorted to other methods like nails in the floor. Even the 70s curved spurs weren't ideal for lifting the front of the bass drum or keeping it from creeping forward.

On my vintage sets I think the primary thing holding it in place is the base plate of my DW pedal which has velcro on the bottom as well as a set of spikes. I do use front anchors too, and they help as well. Nothing vintage works nearly as well as modern fold down spurs though.

It's interesting that on vintage Ludwig sets it's not uncommon to see dual disappearing spurs but I think I've only ever actually seen double gullwing spurs maybe twice.

Slingerland had a better design both as far as arresting forward creep and/or lifting the front on the drum.
 
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cochlea

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K.O. is spot on with his analysis. The disappearing spurs do a nice job of keeping the bass drum from rolling side to side, but I don't think it was ever the intent to have them, or the gull wing spurs, elevate the front of the drum. They also don't prevent the drum from creeping forward, which is why so many of these kits are outfitted with anchors on the front hoop. I have yet to pick up a vintage W&A anchor but my modern DW pedal does a nice job of keeping the drum from creeping forward.
 

mlayton

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Gull wings were the standard spurs at the time but the disappearing spurs were still in the catalog (and remained so up until at least the mid 70s) so it's not that unusual to see them on a 60s drum. Probably it was the preference of the original buyer of the drum or possibly a penny pinching choice of a Ludwig dealer ordering stock for his store. Gull wings, at least in my experience, don't function that much better than disappearing spurs so a drummer of the day might have preferred to stick with the older design.
I actually prefer the disappearing spurs.
 

hsosdrum

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... Even the 70s curved spurs weren't ideal for lifting the front of the bass drum or keeping it from creeping forward...
The Ludwig Vistalite kit I toured with in the '70s had the original (thinner) curved spurs on 24" bass drums and they could bring the front hoops close to 2" off the floor if I wanted (I didn't). But K.O. is absolutely right in saying that they did not keep the drums from creeping forward, even with the rubber tips removed and the spikes exposed.

Our roadies would set up the drums before the band's arrival; once I got to the gig and adjusted everything into playing position the last thing the roadies did on the drums was to drive a 10d nail into the stage against the front of each bass drum spur. One ballroom owner went ballistic when he saw this, claiming that "real drummers can keep their drums from moving without putting nail holes in my stage". Of course, by the time he realized what we were doing the nails were already driven and the 'damage' was done. We drew a large crowd that night, and played there again several times, nails included.
 
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It is important to remember that the primary purpose of early spur designs was to prevent the bass drum from rolling over more than to prevent it from creeping forward. Also lifting the front of the bass drum off the floor wasn't really an intended function of them either. These are needs that modern spurs address (some of them anyway) that were either not done or handled in other ways back in the day.

I don't think either of Ludwig's spur designs they had in the 60s were really intended to do much more than prevent the bass drum from rolling. You can get a bit of lift out of either but not to any great degree. They sold bass drum anchors to help keep the drum from sliding forward or resorted to other methods like nails in the floor. Even the 70s curved spurs weren't ideal for lifting the front of the bass drum or keeping it from creeping forward.

On my vintage sets I think the primary thing holding it in place is the base plate of my DW pedal which has velcro on the bottom as well as a set of spikes. I do use front anchors too, and they help as well. Nothing vintage works nearly as well as modern fold down spurs though.

It's interesting that on vintage Ludwig sets it's not uncommon to see dual disappearing spurs but I think I've only ever actually seen double gullwing spurs maybe twice.

Slingerland had a better design both as far as arresting forward creep and/or lifting the front on the drum.
I agree with your take on the Slingerland spurs. They look a little classier too imo!
 

Ludwigboy

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I have this Champagne Sparkle bass drum on the way to me. The seller notes "Has the factory white painted interior, and has a date stamp but it’s hard to read, see last pic. Looks like it might be Sep 11 1968? The badge number indicates that it’s from 1968. Factory drilled for two disappearing spurs."

Is it odd to see disappearing spurs (instead of gullwings) in '68? Could the shell have been built in the earlier in the factory until '68? Also, I'm wondering whether this could have been a virgin kick. The diamond mount is slightly crooked, but there's no sign of a previous rail mount. That's obviously a 70's back plastic T on the mount. Back in those days stores would also do custom mount installations of your choice. What are your thoughts? Home installed? Store installed? Ludwig on a Friday afternoon?
View attachment 458973 View attachment 458974 View attachment 458975 View attachment 458976 View attachment 458977 View attachment 458978

PS: I'm totally not trying to 'nit-pick'! I'm just curious (as usual). I got this at a totally fair price IMO & it will be a player so the mount, with a ball-style single tom mount, will be quite useful.

PPS: Which Precision wrap will be the closest match for inlays?

Thanks for any thoughts, rants or funny anecdotes!
Great looking bass drum~
i wonder if this was a Hollywood model bass drum (with dual toms) originally because of the absence of the cymbal mount and no evidence of a rail mount. I have one similar from 1966 and it is placed farther back from the badge, see attached photos. Also mine has the metal "rabbit ear" bolt...not sure what year they started using the plastic handle...

Mike is right about the odd placement of the mount being so close to the badge. Is it possible an error from the factory..."Ludwig on a Friday afternoon"?... the hole looks cleanly cut...

Yes, the ball-style single tom mount should work fine with this mount...mine does. I got the Ludwig LR255STH Rocker tom arm with the 9.5Mm L-Arm/Ball and it works well (it is pictured)
 

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thin shell

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That diamond plate doesn't look like it was installed at the factory. The plate itself is definitely a 70's part because of the plastic handle but the location plus the size and misalignment of the hole doesn't look like something Ludwig would do.
 

Ludwigboy

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That diamond plate doesn't look like it was installed at the factory. The plate itself is definitely a 70's part because of the plastic handle but the location plus the size and misalignment of the hole doesn't look like something Ludwig would do.
The more I look at it, the more I think you and MLayton (Mike) are correct.
 

thin shell

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It could have been part of a Rock Duo hence no factory tom mounts or cymbal holders. Someone just ordered it with disappearing spurs.
 

funkypoodle

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Great looking bass drum~
i wonder if this was a Hollywood model bass drum (with dual toms) originally because of the absence of the cymbal mount and no evidence of a rail mount. I have one similar from 1966 and it is placed farther back from the badge, see attached photos. Also mine has the metal "rabbit ear" bolt...not sure what year they started using the plastic handle...

Mike is right about the odd placement of the mount being so close to the badge. Is it possible an error from the factory..."Ludwig on a Friday afternoon"?... the hole looks cleanly cut...

Yes, the ball-style single tom mount should work fine with this mount...mine does. I got the Ludwig LR255STH Rocker tom arm with the 9.5Mm L-Arm/Ball and it works well (it is pictured)
Thanks for the model # (LR255STH Rocker tom arm). I am more and more convinced that the mount wasn't put there "factory". This will fit well with other odd aspects of the Super Classic Champagne kit it will be paired with. The 13" has large knob mufflers top & bottom. The 16" floor tom has a bb muffler & opposite has an extra leg mount, probably for a cowbell. Each drum will have an extra "mojo" factor.
 

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