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YourDrumSound

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GeneZ said:
Low tuning snare that way is what I tried when I first got drums and did not know how to tune yet. It requires no ear, nor skill... I called it dumb tuning back then. :confused5:

Tuning that low kills all the drum's unique resonance and carrying power of the drum. Why get a drum that has excellent resonance and carrying power? Only to kill it?

IMO... That tuning should only be used in the studio, or where the mic becomes your drum, not the drum itself. For, it will never carry playing live without being mic'ed. You will be thrashing away and nothing will be heard in the crowd.

Now... if you are playing in low volume acoustic band? That tuning can work. But any decent snare would do in that case. Save the Black Beauty for its majesty and power.... and quality of sound that can not be replicated with other drums. Why kill it? latest fad?
Hi! I have a rental for recording studio and I go for what the drummer/producer ask, most of the time there's no "room" for things like "open tone" and "keep the resonance goes" or "let it sings".
When you do that you've to switch your brain from the metal session you did yesterday to the funk project thet is running today.
Especially you have to leave in your practice room your thought and conception about how a drum should sound.

With that said, this video is meant to undertand if a vintage drum is that different from a modern snare. I'm not asking if you like this tuning.
I prefer a snare to be cranked way up, but this doesn't pay the bills.

As far as live playing, a lot of singers and band leaders prefer a snare that is not so overwhelming and melts with the band backing up the rhythm part of the song.

But again, we have different tastes and needs and go for whatever satisfy them.
Dave
 

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GeneZ said:
Low tuning snare that way is what I tried when I first got drums and did not know how to tune yet. It requires no ear, nor skill... I called it dumb tuning back then. :confused5:

Tuning that low kills all the drum's unique resonance and carrying power of the drum. Why get a drum that has excellent resonance and carrying power? Only to kill it?

IMO... That tuning should only be used in the studio, or where the mic becomes your drum, not the drum itself. For, it will never carry playing live without being mic'ed. You will be thrashing away and nothing will be heard in the crowd.

Now... if you are playing in low volume acoustic band? That tuning can work. But any decent snare would do in that case. Save the Black Beauty for its majesty and power.... and quality of sound that can not be replicated with other drums. Why kill it? latest fad?
Im sorry but after having done a ton of shootouts and comparison I find this to be somewhat inaccurate. In my experience especially with metal drums, the higher the tuning, the less pronounced the differences became. A less tight tuning actually allowed the drums tone to resonate and the differences were more pronounced.
 

JCKOriollo

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Chicago.Drum.Exchange said:
Thanks for the video! It's always cool hearing how vintage drums hold up against the new stuff. If you're not playing in a studio I really doubt you'd be able to hear a difference. The new luddy stuff is made really well and a lot of the times its made using the same machines they were using in the 60's/70's. Would love some more of these videos!
I think you may be referring to some of the molds and machines used to make wood drums...but i was just going to mention that the current black beauty isnt made the same way as it use to be made, and the raw shells arent made in the Ludwig factory. Its still seamless but its a different process. Not spun anymore. Not that it matters they still sound great but I like i think many others use to think the black beauty was being made in the factory with the same machines its always been made with and I later found out that wasnt true.
 

mpthomson

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snurf said:
Stupid question I forgot to ask but always do - are they both brass, bronze or a mix?
It's not stupid question at all. It's very good question. Modern BB shell is made of brass, the sound character coming from the vintage BB
is darker, slightly drier and resonance is shorter. I have bronze BB from 1988, and mine is quite close to that sound. I noticed that after I had and sold modern BB with gaskets. The difference is evident, under microphone can be not so immediately obvious.
Side note: Maybe this is where the conspiracy theory comes about new old stock of BB shells used in late 80's. In catalogue there are listed ludwig bronze snares and black beauties, also made of bronze.


I like 70's sound over the modern BB. However with proper dampening I think, you can achieve similar results on modern BB.

One note: You can clearly see the lug splay after the gaskets removed. It means modern shell is undersized. Threads of lugs can wore out or damage if not screwed as perpendicular as possible. In my opinion the biggest sound difference makes putting vintage hoops

Yourdrumsound: many thanks for the videos!
It's the hoops that are wider, not the shell being smaller. Affects 400/402 drums too.
 
J

jaymandude

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Yourdrumsound said:
As far as live playing, a lot of singers and band leaders prefer a snare that is not so overwhelming and melts with the band backing up the rhythm part of the song.
this is very true. I have had to learn how to accept a different tuning than I like, or use a 6.5 mahogany drum
 

Markkuliini

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JCKLudwig said:
Low tuning snare that way is what I tried when I first got drums and did not know how to tune yet. It requires no ear, nor skill... I called it dumb tuning back then. :confused5:

Tuning that low kills all the drum's unique resonance and carrying power of the drum. Why get a drum that has excellent resonance and carrying power? Only to kill it?

IMO... That tuning should only be used in the studio, or where the mic becomes your drum, not the drum itself. For, it will never carry playing live without being mic'ed. You will be thrashing away and nothing will be heard in the crowd.

Now... if you are playing in low volume acoustic band? That tuning can work. But any decent snare would do in that case. Save the Black Beauty for its majesty and power.... and quality of sound that can not be replicated with other drums. Why kill it? latest fad?
Im sorry but after having done a ton of shootouts and comparison I find this to be somewhat inaccurate. In my experience especially with metal drums, the higher the tuning, the less pronounced the differences became. A less tight tuning actually allowed the drums tone to resonate and the differences were more pronounced.

This is my experience too. Also, pretty much all the snares sound at least ok when tuned higher. But not that many sound goo when tuned lower.
When it comes to this claimed "dumb tuning", I find it's actually much harder to tune when the snare is tuned lower. Or more so, that lower tuned snare (when wide open) is extremely unforgiving to uneven tuning, even small inaccuracies can make the overtones go wild. But on tighter tunings, the drum sounds good even when the tuning is bit uneven.
 

JazzDrumGuy

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MP, I agree. The splay issues with Ludwig snares has been solved by getting rid of the factory hoops and using "regular" triple flange or die cast hoops......what a major issue!!! I don't get why their rims are bigger.

Mark, I agree - nothing like a mid/high tuned metal drum. As for lower tunings, I think you just need a deeper snare. Like an 8x14 - I would think that tuned to medium would be a fat lower sound. I can't imagine such a big drum between my legs but that's just me. Also, it's not practical for jazz IMO.....
 

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JazzDrumGuy said:
MP, I agree. The splay issues with Ludwig snares has been solved by getting rid of the factory hoops and using "regular" triple flange or die cast hoops......what a major issue!!! I don't get why their rims are bigger.

Mark, I agree - nothing like a mid/high tuned metal drum. As for lower tunings, I think you just need a deeper snare. Like an 8x14 - I would think that tuned to medium would be a fat lower sound. I can't imagine such a big drum between my legs but that's just me. Also, it's not practical for jazz IMO.....

I actually like all kinds of tunings on 5x14. Just meant that it's really crucial to tune accurately, when tuned lower.
Personally I find really deep snares (7" is my limit) just tad unfocused, and therefore often thinner sounding than shallower snares, because the sound and the bottom takes more time to exit the drum. The bottom doesn't have so clear "center". So, to me deep snares don't sound fatter, but they just sound slower.
 

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Like many drums of a similar class the differences are subtle. I intuitively knew that by buying a vintage BB I was paying for the badge, muffler, and potential higher resale.
 

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GeneZ said:
Low tuning snare that way is what I tried when I first got drums and did not know how to tune yet. It requires no ear, nor skill... I called it dumb tuning back then. :confused5:

Tuning that low kills all the drum's unique resonance and carrying power of the drum. Why get a drum that has excellent resonance and carrying power? Only to kill it?

IMO... That tuning should only be used in the studio, or where the mic becomes your drum, not the drum itself. For, it will never carry playing live without being mic'ed. You will be thrashing away and nothing will be heard in the crowd.

Now... if you are playing in low volume acoustic band? That tuning can work. But any decent snare would do in that case. Save the Black Beauty for its majesty and power.... and quality of sound that can not be replicated with other drums. Why kill it? latest fad?
At times I enjoy a low tuning for certain things. But I agree that in general, low tunings do not project well to the audience. Many times, even when micd up, these sound systems are not the best quality and may not pick up as they should.

Case in point...I just filled in for a church like that last week...they said our sound system isnt that great, so we need you to play louder! Yep. And low tuned drums would not have helped in that situation. Next time I go there, I know a little more on what to expect and how to adjust or bring gear (and tune) with projection in mind.
 

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mpthomson said:
It's the hoops that are wider, not the shell being smaller. Affects 400/402 drums too.
No. Because when you put gaskets there will be no splay anymore. Guess what happens when you put gaskets on vintage shell...
 


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