Ludwig- Paiste Cymbal....NOT Standard

Formula 602

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I went to a Paiste clinic many moons ago....and the rep mentioned there being 2 kinds of Standards......one,is tempered.....the other,not...

He also said...the tempered ones are close to 602 in design.....
 

zenstat

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I went to a Paiste clinic many moons ago....and the rep mentioned there being 2 kinds of Standards......one,is tempered.....the other,not...

He also said...the tempered ones are close to 602 in design.....
A few questions spring to mind:

Any hints on which two types of Standards the rep was talking about? What decade was he talking about? Is he perhaps comparing two different alloys? How many moons ago were you at the Paiste clinic? Was the rep old enough to have been working at Paiste in the decade he was talking about?
 

Formula 602

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It had to be around 25 years or so...

He was taking about Ludwig Standards....are there any others?

He was older then me,I think....I was around 40..he,50?

Same alloy.....since he said that..I look at Ludwig Standards....and sure enough......some just look spun,while others have the squiggly lines all over (tempered)..like a 602...
 

type85

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It had to be around 25 years or so...

He was taking about Ludwig Standards....are there any others?

He was older then me,I think....I was around 40..he,50?

Same alloy.....since he said that..I look at Ludwig Standards....and sure enough......some just look spun,while others have the squiggly lines all over (tempered)..like a 602...
Here's some data to help clarify:
"some just look spun"
Paiste never "spun" cymbals, no cymbal manufacture uses that technique as far as I know...

"while others have the squiggly lines all over (tempered)"
That's called lathing (has nothing to do with tempering!).
ALL old Paistes were lathed and hammered, the difference in price point depended on material used (MS63, NS12, B20 or B8) and the amount of hammering and lathing required.
"Tempering" is a heat treatment process used only on B20 alloy: Tempering
Paiste ONLY produced one B20 cymbal line from 1957 to the late 70's: the Formula 602 (I consider the "super formula 602" to be in the same group as the 602).

Paiste "Ludwig" cymbal, '56 to '64 (made from NS12), lathing and hammering can clearly be seen:

1634508932287.png



Paiste "Ludwig standard" cymbal, '65 to '75, (made from NS12, B8 by the 70's), lathing and hammering can clearly be seen:

1634508970104.png
 

Formula 602

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Ok..thanks for that....You know more the technical terms then I...

so..what do you think?....Do you see any difference..from a early Standard...to a later, non B8 version?..
 

toddlittle827

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The NF timeline is riddled with inaccurate information and incorrect dates. It was created with a lot of guesswork and with nowhere near the amount of old Paiste catalogs we have unearthed over the last 4-5 years. While it was a good achievement at the time and the starting point for guys like Mark and myself, it is obsolete.

When it was created the thought was Stambul 65 replaced the Stambul in 1965, throwing off the dates the Paiste stopped using NS12. That turned out be wrong.
Also, when it was created it was not understood how the German serial numbers worked, throwing more of the timeline.
 

toddlittle827

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as for the Ludwig cymbals. I think people get confused when they come across one of the later B8 Ludwig Standard examples and think they've found a "special" cymbal since they are thought be all NS12 and they try to attach some sort of story (it's B20 - it's lathed like a Giant Beat - it's experimental) to it especially when trying to resell it for a pretty penny.
 

knavel

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I just listed my Ludwig Paiste 22'' Ride on eBay in the UK. I don't have a lot of cymbal experience, but this was a cymbal I was OK having my drummer gig or record with. I appreciate the information in this thread, as I have learned my cymbal was made between 1957-64. I am assuming at the later end as the cymbal came with a 1964 Ludwig set.
IMG_20211030_154718487.jpg
IMG_20211030_154529167.jpg
IMG_20211030_154636305.jpg
 

type85

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I just listed my Ludwig Paiste 22'' Ride on eBay in the UK. I don't have a lot of cymbal experience, but this was a cymbal I was OK having my drummer gig or record with. I appreciate the information in this thread, as I have learned my cymbal was made between 1957-64. I am assuming at the later end as the cymbal came with a 1964 Ludwig set.

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Yes sir!
You have a Nickel silver "3 star" Ludwig Paiste.
I recently got Bill Ludwig jr's book, he states they were ordering 20,000 of these per year from Paiste.
Ludig dealers stocked them along with the drums, so it was common for them to sell a set of these cymbals along with the drumset to beginning drummers.

1964 catalog:

paiste ludwig 64 catalog.jpg
 
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knavel

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You have a Nickel silver "3 star" Ludwig Paiste.
I recently got Bill Ludwigs II book, he states they were ordering 20,000 of these per year from Paiste!
Ludig dealers stocked them along with the drums, so it was common for them to sell a set of these cymbals along with the drumset to beginning drummers.
Thanks! While hardly impossible to find, it's surprising one doesn't see more regularly on sale given those production numbers.

I once bought a 1965 Ludwig Club date kit that came with its original Stanoples. This Ludwig Paiste sounds much better than any of those. Someone who loves cymbals and different tones would like it but it's ideally not one's main cymbal and I only want one of each type of traditional cymbals and finally after years found a 60s A. Zildjian 20'' I like better, but not tremendously so. My son liked the LP better than the Zildjian.

I was surprised at how much curiosity there has been on the 22'' Ludwig Paiste here in the UK. Maybe because there aren't that many. I bought mine from the USA. Mine weighs around 2300g, it's hard to tell precisely because the scale reverts to zero when something is taken off of it and there is no way to see its reading with that huge cymbal!
 
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type85

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Thanks! While hardly impossible to find, it's surprising one doesn't see more regularly on sale given those production numbers.

I once bought a 1965 Ludwig Club date kit that came with its original Stanoples. This Ludwig Paiste sounds much better than any of those. Someone who loves cymbals and different tones would like it but it's ideally not one's main cymbal and I only want one of each type of traditional cymbals and finally after years found a 60s A. Zildjian 20'' I like better, but not tremendously so. My son liked the LP better than the Zildjian.

I was surprised at how much curiosity there has been on the 22'' Ludwig Paiste here in the UK. Maybe because there aren't that many. I bought mine from the USA. Mine weighs around 2300g, it's hard to tell precisely because the scale reverts to zero when something is taken off of it and there is no way to see its reading with that huge cymbal!
"I was surprised at how much curiosity there has been on the 22'' Ludwig Paiste here in the UK."
Absolutely Europe never got them!
Stanoples are pretty mysterious as well, I don't know if they were specifically made for Ludwig but they were placed at the bottom below the "Standards".
'71 catalog:

ludwig 71 paiste 4.jpg
 

toddlittle827

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The Stanoples were made exclusively for Ludwig. They are rebranded Paiste Dixies. And like the Dixie switched to B8 around 1971/2 so you can find them if you look hard enough.

The "Ludwig", Ludwig Standards and Stanople cymbals were strictly made for North America. That's why they are seldom seen for sale second hand outside of the USA.

On the flip side we don't have many Stambuls, Stambul 65 and Dixies here in the US as Ludwig and Rogers never handled those lines.
 
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knavel

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The Stanoples were made exclusively for Ludwig. They are rebranded Paiste Dixies. And like the Dixie switched to B8 around 1971/2 so you can find them if you look hard enough.

The "Ludwig", Ludwig Standards and Stanople cymbals were strictly made for North America. That's why they are seldom seen for sale second hand outside of the USA.

On the flip side we don't have many Stambuls, Stambul 65 and Dixies here in the US as Ludwig and Rogers never handled those lines.
Having had them all, there are some decent ones, but nothing beats a good Zildjian (Avedis--I had a K vintage one as well and it was truly a dog). Fun thread, thanks for all the info!
 

1988fxlr

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Thanks! While hardly impossible to find, it's surprising one doesn't see more regularly on sale given those production numbers.

I once bought a 1965 Ludwig Club date kit that came with its original Stanoples. This Ludwig Paiste sounds much better than any of those. Someone who loves cymbals and different tones would like it but it's ideally not one's main cymbal and I only want one of each type of traditional cymbals and finally after years found a 60s A. Zildjian 20'' I like better, but not tremendously so. My son liked the LP better than the Zildjian.

I was surprised at how much curiosity there has been on the 22'' Ludwig Paiste here in the UK. Maybe because there aren't that many. I bought mine from the USA. Mine weighs around 2300g, it's hard to tell precisely because the scale reverts to zero when something is taken off of it and there is no way to see its reading with that huge cymbal!
Its easier to see the weights on the scale if you put something under the cymbal. I usually use a plastic pint glass or a roll of duct tape on its side. If your scale doesn’t have a tare function just subtract the weight of your prop from the total with cymbal
 

Morello Man

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Yes Sir! I checked the Ludwig catalogs pre 1957 and they list "turkjian" cymbals (who made those?), in the '57 catalog they list the Paistes a "new" addition so it makes sense that '56 was thier introduction.
I had to "auto translate" from German to English the NF timeline, the grammar was a mess, and it's still confusing after spending cubic hours editing and rewriting it!
Ludwig were selling, up to March '64, Super Classic kits with a Paiste (Ludwig stamped?) cymbal pack with an option for Formula 602.
 

toddlittle827

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Would like to see hard proof of that. The incident that happened that led to Ludwig carrying Formula 602s came in the summer of 1964. All indications are Ludwig started selling F602 in 1965.
 


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