Natural Talent / Lessons / Desire …..

Houndog

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I
I know of 1 drummer in particular who has played consistently and relentlessly since he was in middle school. He is now in his early 60’s. I have known him for about 20 years, and over that span I have never seen him play in pocket, always rushing or dragging, falling apart on the most basic rudimentary fills, and unable to play anything that isn’t based on single strokes.
When you hear him play in a band setting, 30 seconds in and you realize he is a really terrible drummer, and conclude he must be a first timer.
And he appears to have no idea this is the case.
His passion and dedication are beyond question. But one truly must have some level of ability to even become serviceable as a drummer.
I know a few drummers like that , they are clueless and don’t care to learn ….
I’m amazed they can even land a gig .
But for the most part the bands they are in have to take who they can get …
 

pjmariner

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Obviously talent helps, and talent plus dedication/practice leads to true excellence.
What I think is much harder to teach or learn is feel. Similar to dancing, anyone can learn to dance if given enough time and lessons, but feel and your natural rhythm is what makes your personal drumming unique.
Also your own personal phrasing, especially on original tunes, to me Is what separates being a musician from being and Instrumentalist
I dont have the skills to be an Instrumentalist. There is a large swatch of drumming I am inadequate at playing, not to mention I can barely read music, never mind sight read.
I am more of a “Musician”used to coming up with my own stuff, and covering tunes in genres I like with my own style…. For better or for worse, lol.
 

Houndog

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Obviously talent helps, and talent plus dedication/practice leads to true excellence.
What I think is much harder to teach or learn is feel. Similar to dancing, anyone can learn to dance if given enough time and lessons, but feel and your natural rhythm is what makes your personal drumming unique.
Also your own personal phrasing, especially on original tunes, to me Is what separates being a musician from being and Instrumentalist
I dont have the skills to be an Instrumentalist. There is a large swatch of drumming I am inadequate at playing, not to mention I can barely read music, never mind sight read.
I am more of a “Musician”used to coming up with my own stuff, and covering tunes in genres I like with my own style…. For better or for worse, lol.
This sounds like me , I really can’t copy drum fills verbatim unless they are simple …
I much prefer to play originals these days
 

JDA

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I’m not sure what my thoughts are .
focus like a monk ; but not everyone willing (and it's (being a musician) (even mentally) no way mandatory required to be human) ...not willing to give up____ ......for a 'life of the cloth'.......errr drummer..It's priesthood ya know. Gene Krupa. he saw two choices. took the lesser priesthood but nonetheless...it's near 100% daily 24/7 . Ya put on the white collar. (or not.
 

drawtheline55

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You have to have the ability to play, lessons beyond that, sure can only improve
but you cant "teach" some one to play an instrument or sing.

I could take piano lessons or voice lessons 8 hrs a day for yrs and would still be pretty bad.
 

JDA

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Desire has to be pretty strong and near daily
One buddy of mine will come down off the stage and ask me " how did I sound How did I sound How did I sound"
I say " man you been playing for 35 years relax"
Some lack confidence because down inside they know they don't (eat sleep drink) music (more importantly their instrument) 24/7 or 24/6 etc..
~~

The buddy I mention has one part of the personality- he networks, bumps into people active in the art (gigs, nightlife) etc....but he lacks inner confidence of (deep) dive studies on his instrument (history of it, dives into influential drummers) He hasn't the attraction to do. He just doesn't put the daytime into Not geared that way...
 
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Tornado

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I could take piano lessons or voice lessons 8 hrs a day for yrs and would still be pretty bad.
A year of weekly piano lessons with a good teacher who knows you're serious, and two hours of practice a day, and I guarantee you'd be amazed at your progress.
 

Matched Gripper

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Thoughts on Natural talent vs Desire …

Some think you either have it or not and lessons won’t help .
Some think anyone can play what they desire if they just put in the time .
Can lessons help you develop?

I’m not sure what my thoughts are .
Natural talent is like a sliding scale. We all have it. Some more, some less. Having more natural talent only means that given an equal amount effort, the one with more natural talent will manifest developed skills quicker and further. The one with less natural talent can compensate, perhaps surpass the one with more natural talent, with a higher level of sustained effort and devotion.
 

Matched Gripper

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This sounds like me , I really can’t copy drum fills verbatim unless they are simple …
I much prefer to play originals these days
When you say you can’t copy drum fills, do you mean you can’t figure out what they are, or you can figure them out, but don’t have the skills to execute them?
 

swarfrat

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Natural Talent can be an amazing start, but without hard work it doesn't go far. Check out the sad story of David Hahn.

People with both are truly standouts, but hard work goes way further than natural talent IME
 

Houndog

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When you say you can’t copy drum fills, do you mean you can’t figure out what they are, or you can figure them out, but don’t have the skills to execute them?
Can’t figure them out , when I watch an instructional video on it I can then work them out . I’m amazed that guys can figure that stuff out …..
For instance the opening fill in Sober by Tool . I’d have to look it up …
Can’t figure it out by ear …
Or the opening fill in Two Tickets to Paradise I’d have to look it up .
 

Houndog

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I’m embarrassed to admit how long it took me to figure out the opening fill to LaGrange .
I was doodling around with triplets one day and it hit me like a ton of bricks ….
Geeeez
 

JDA

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have to know Notation to fill in like the Two Tickets fill
Once you know notation you see it's used all over the place in most genres
you know..where you can hear, the drummer , rock, Jazz whatever ginger Baker or Billy Higgins
it's all rests measures notes then phrasing, can cut / shade a few corners..
double-stroke rolls, single stroke rolls, combination endings and stickings)
 
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mfk252

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I saw the drum chart for Zappa's The Black Page the other day and I don't see how someone could get there without a good helping each of Natural Talent, Desire and some form of Lessons/Study.

I added the term "Study" to the lessons component as our musical education comprises much more than sitting down with an instructor (although I know formal lessons benefitted me greatly). Listening to music critically can be very helpful (including what 'not' to play). Recording one's self and being relentlessly critical has been very helpful to me (it can be very humbling too).

I agree with the comments on feel and phrasing - that's what makes us all unique.
 

Matched Gripper

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Can’t figure them out , when I watch an instructional video on it I can then work them out . I’m amazed that guys can figure that stuff out …..
For instance the opening fill in Sober by Tool . I’d have to look it up …
Can’t figure it out by ear …
Or the opening fill in Two Tickets to Paradise I’d have to look it up .
From my own experience, once I took the time to learn all of the rudiments, it was much easier to figure out what I was listening to because a lot of it is based on the standard rudiments. Because I knew the rudiments, it was easier to recognize them when I heard them, even if it was something similar to a standard rudiment.

In addition, it helps to figure out what you are listening to if you can read rhythm. (I don’t mean site reading music (another skill), just being able to look at it and know what you’re looking at). Just because you recognize a sticking or standard rudiment doesn’t mean you know how to fit it into the song, especially if it starts and/or ends off of the beat. You often have to count out the rhythm (sometimes over and over), while listening to that part of the song in order to figure that out. I don’t know how to do that efficiently without knowing rhythmic notation.

Hope that’s helpful!
 

Houndog

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From my own experience, once I took the time to learn all of the rudiments, it was much easier to figure out what I was listening to because a lot of it is based on the standard rudiments. Because I knew the rudiments, it was easier to recognize them when I heard them, even if it was something similar to a standard rudiment.

In addition, it helps to figure out what you are listening to if you can read rhythm. (I don’t mean site reading music (another skill), just being able to look at it and know what you’re looking at). Just because you recognize a sticking or standard rudiment doesn’t mean you know how to fit it into the song, especially if it starts and/or ends off of the beat. You often have to count out the rhythm (sometimes over and over), while listening to that part of the song in order to figure that out. I don’t know how to do that efficiently without knowing rhythmic notation.

Hope that’s helpful!
That would explain a lot , I never studied the rudiments too extensively.
The paradiddle I find pretty much useless for me . I can’t make it sound good as a drum beat . And for the life of me as a fill . No way . My brain crumbles ….

It mystifies me when what I consider great musicians compliment my playing .
I sat in with some killer players last year and the guitarist told me he was very impressed, I said thank I’ve been taking lessons from so and so , he said “WTF ?
To heck with him you oughta be teaching him “. Which is completely and utterly absurd .
My teacher is an amazing player and a very good teacher .
He always has more than one way to unlock my mind …..
 

JDA

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disregard conflicting messages from others "you're great!" (inside you say yeah no..
Inner confidence can withstand any -good or bad- critique.
of course always listen constructively but don't be swayed either

So Psychology is something I've been thinking of doing on the side. get me outta this thread!
:D

and regarding paradiddle sticking. You have to make that work. in straight 16ths or you can play it in triplets..it's a whole open door to most 70s on - drumming stuff (pun no pun)
don't avoid it; the right foot -in unison- along with the right hand; is a good exercise you may like. Then double and triple paradiddle- all- good hand and set- exercise.
 


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