Need advice on 18" old A's weight

[zenstat]

Just a little more on 18" cymbals. I include this here for future readers who may be interested in identifying models once the model ink is gone. It isn't particularly relevant to looking for a Trans stamp because there aren't Special Cups found on 18" Cymbals going back that far. The first 18" with a Special Cup I've picked up is late 1950s. Ink saying CRASH does go back that far

A Zildjian 1950s Crash ink - Cymbal

www.cymbal.wiki

but the use of the larger Special Cup on an 18" doesn't seem go back that far on present evidence.

This is a MEDIUM CRASH from 1976-1982 based on the ink on the underside.

This is consistent with not having diameter ink under the model ink. It weighs 1610g making it weight class Medium. It appears to have the Special Cup, based on measuring pixels on the screen. Measuring is easier in person, but the cymbal is on the other side of the world from me. It may be that the difference between a MEDIUM CRASH model from this period and a MEDIUM RIDE from this period is bell size. The MEDIUM RIDE would have the Medium Cup, the MEDIUM CRASH would have the Special Cup. A designated CRASH may also have relatively more taper (thinning of the metal towards the edge). This is one theory about the difference. The competing theory about the difference is that somebody listened to it and decided whether it should be called a CRASH or a RIDE, but the build specs are the same. We have similar differences for the 18" MEDIUM THIN CRASH and the 18" CRASH RIDE but in that case the build specs are said to be the same from Zildjian insiders.

Why do I bother with teasing out this level of detail? You are unlikely to find a Trans Stamp 18" Crash with the model ink intact, so learning more about weight classes plus understanding the changes over the decades can help in your search. And if you do happen to find a Trans Stamp era 18" with model ink saying CRASH I'd love to know.

For this analysis I've looked at 680 18" A Zildjian cymbals in my database. There are 47 with Special Cups "for sure" based on my measuring techniques, or where we have a photograph. There are 82 if you relax the criterion to include "probably" Special Cups. I have a lot of data, and that's just the 18" diameter. This is what it takes to find patterns in data and test our beliefs.

Here are the 5 major cup sizes I'm talking about

There are other cups/bells which go back into the 1950s, but these are the most common by far. The Large Cup is only found in the 1970s onwards.

 

[PPF]

Wow. The relathed 21" sounds horrible now with conflicting harsh frequencies firing away. Not pleasant at all. Trashy, harsh, lacks proper resonance. No longer sounds like a Zildjian A....a K....or anything else I'm familiar with. If yours is only 2660 gm (heavy medium) I don't think I'd mess with it. For 21's they can sound quite pleasant at a med thin to med weight of 2400 gm....maybe 2500 gm.

I always get the feeling that there's something off with these 70's As. most of them are screaming in my ears, I'm wondering if they did change something in the B20 formular during that time

 

[ThomasL]

Not old A's, but my 18's are 1440g (for big band etc.) and then in the 1190-1270g range for small group jazz.

 

[jptrickster]

Have you had enough advice yet?

 

[DBT]

Just a little more on 18" cymbals. I include this here for future readers who may be interested in identifying models once the model ink is gone. It isn't particularly relevant to looking for a Trans stamp because there aren't Special Cups found on 18" Cymbals going back that far. The first 18" with a Special Cup I've picked up is late 1950s. Ink saying CRASH does go back that far

A Zildjian 1950s Crash ink - Cymbal

www.cymbal.wiki

but the use of the larger Special Cup on an 18" doesn't seem go back that far on present evidence.

This is a MEDIUM CRASH from 1976-1982 based on the ink on the underside.


View attachment 590655

View attachment 590656

This is consistent with not having diameter ink under the model ink. It weighs 1610g making it weight class Medium. It appears to have the Special Cup, based on measuring pixels on the screen. Measuring is easier in person, but the cymbal is on the other side of the world from me. It may be that the difference between a MEDIUM CRASH model from this period and a MEDIUM RIDE from this period is bell size. The MEDIUM RIDE would have the Medium Cup, the MEDIUM CRASH would have the Special Cup. A designated CRASH may also have relatively more taper (thinning of the metal towards the edge). This is one theory about the difference. The competing theory about the difference is that somebody listened to it and decided whether it should be called a CRASH or a RIDE, but the build specs are the same. We have similar differences for the 18" MEDIUM THIN CRASH and the 18" CRASH RIDE but in that case the build specs are said to be the same from Zildjian insiders.

Why do I bother with teasing out this level of detail? You are unlikely to find a Trans Stamp 18" Crash with the model ink intact, so learning more about weight classes plus understanding the changes over the decades can help in your search. And if you do happen to find a Trans Stamp era 18" with model ink saying CRASH I'd love to know.

For this analysis I've looked at 680 18" A Zildjian cymbals in my database. There are 47 with Special Cups "for sure" based on my measuring techniques, or where we have a photograph. There are 82 if you relax the criterion to include "probably" Special Cups. I have a lot of data, and that's just the 18" diameter. This is what it takes to find patterns in data and test our beliefs.

Here are the 5 major cup sizes I'm talking about

View attachment 590657

There are other cups/bells which go back into the 1950s, but these are the most common by far. The Large Cup is only found in the 1970s onwards.

Hey Zen , here’s a Hollow Logo 18” Thin 1448 Special Cup Crash for ya if you need it for your files .

 

[zenstat]

I always get the feeling that there's something off with these 70's As. most of them are screaming in my ears, I'm wondering if they did change something in the B20 formular during that time

A whole new topic! The B20 formulation is not what is changing.

Alloys - Cymbal

www.cymbal.wiki

What changed is some aspects of production methods.

As best I can reconstruct, some time in the mid 70s hydraulic pressing into shape came into use. Prior to this cymbals were hammered into shape on a machine with an operator guiding the cymbal. They called it the Quincy Drop Hammer. The first pressed into shape unhammered model from the A Zildjian factory in the US the Earth Ride in 1979. Earlier on the Canadian branch AZCO was doing the experimentation for pressing into shape without hammering for some cymbals, but it took some time for this technology to transfer to the US.

For other models, pressing was done into preliminary shape and then hammered by the operator guiding the cymbal. The visible hammering gets less obvious once hydraulic pressing into shape comes on the scene. Pressing into shape gives a more focused sound. Hammering into shape gives a more complex sound. After the shape is achieved comes the lathing. I believe that we don't give enough credit to the effect that lathing has on the final sound. But in that 21" re-lathed example I gave above you can see that at the extremes lathing certainly has a large effect on sound.

From my perspective what also changed at this time was the amount of time each cymbal spent getting additional fine tuning. This could be either by hammer, or on the lathe, as both contribute to the final sound. Thanks to @Cliff DeArment who put me on to the fine tuning. It is looking like handwork and fine tuning for the A series decreased through the 60s and 70s. By the 80s fine tuning was a thing of the past in the A series and the overtone series was more random. I say A series because there were also Canadian Ks and then EAKs (the Early American Ks) which had a different level of handwork. Don't be too hard on Zildjian for this. They were investing in labor saving machines which meant the factory stayed in the US and wasn't outsourced to Wuhan, China.

The 80s are also known for a shift up in the weigh classes. Yes I know I was writing as if the weight classes work over all decades, but there is good evidence from Zildjian employees and my own weight modelling research that the Medium Ride moved up a weight class and became a Medium Ride model with Medium Heavy weight class. That opened up a window in the offerings and starting around 1980 there was a Light Ride which was Medium weight class. Those weren't in production that long. The 18" and 20" went out of production in 1996, which was long before the Medium Ride (and the whole A series product line) had a big redesign and emerged as a Medium Ride which was Medium Weight class in 2013. What's old is new and what's new is old.

 

[JimmyM]

A whole new topic! The B20 formulation is not what is changing.

Alloys - Cymbal

www.cymbal.wiki

What changed is some aspects of production methods.

As best I can reconstruct, some time in the mid 70s hydraulic pressing into shape came into use. Prior to this cymbals were hammered into shape on a machine with an operator guiding the cymbal. They called it the Quincy Drop Hammer. The first pressed into shape unhammered model from the A Zildjian factory in the US the Earth Ride in 1979. Earlier on the Canadian branch AZCO was doing the experimentation for pressing into shape without hammering for some cymbals, but it took some time for this technology to transfer to the US.

For other models, pressing was done into preliminary shape and then hammered by the operator guiding the cymbal. The visible hammering gets less obvious once hydraulic pressing into shape comes on the scene. Pressing into shape gives a more focused sound. Hammering into shape gives a more complex sound. After the shape is achieved comes the lathing. I believe that we don't give enough credit to the effect that lathing has on the final sound. But in that 21" re-lathed example I gave above you can see that at the extremes lathing certainly has a large effect on sound.

From my perspective what also changed at this time was the amount of time each cymbal spent getting additional fine tuning. This could be either by hammer, or on the lathe, as both contribute to the final sound. Thanks to @Cliff DeArment who put me on to the fine tuning. It is looking like handwork and fine tuning for the A series decreased through the 60s and 70s. By the 80s fine tuning was a thing of the past in the A series and the overtone series was more random. I say A series because there were also Canadian Ks and then EAKs (the Early American Ks) which had a different level of handwork. Don't be too hard on Zildjian for this. They were investing in labor saving machines which meant the factory stayed in the US and wasn't outsourced to Wuhan, China.

The 80s are also known for a shift up in the weigh classes. Yes I know I was writing as if the weight classes work over all decades, but there is good evidence from Zildjian employees and my own weight modelling research that the Medium Ride moved up a weight class and became a Medium Ride model with Medium Heavy weight class. That opened up a window in the offerings and starting around 1980 there was a Light Ride which was Medium weight class. Those weren't in production that long. The 18" and 20" went out of production in 1996, which was long before the Medium Ride (and the whole A series product line) had a big redesign and emerged as a Medium Ride which was Medium Weight class in 2013. What's old is new and what's new is old.

Dang, you are good!

 

[zenstat]

Hey Zen , here’s a Hollow Logo 18” Thin 1448 Special Cup Crash for ya if you need it for your files .

Interesting. Does your cymbal have the Thin Trademark Stamp or the CO Stamp?

I've already got one at that weight in my archives but it has different model ink

This style of ink is a bit earlier than yours (and the MEDIUM CRASH example) and is from a time when there were two separate ink stamps. One for weight class (MEDIUM THIN) and one for model (CRASH). At least I think it is earlier based on all the ink examples I've collected so far. I'm still working on the complete history of ink.

I presume we're looking at the change in ink (and maybe weight classes) coming in between the two cymbals, so in the period 1976ish to 1982. It might relfect the weight class changes creeping in as well. Either that or the weight difference and ink classification by the factory is at the limits of resolution for them and assignment to THIN or MEDIUM THIN is rather arbitrary at 1448g. The cymbal with the old style ink also had the Thin Stamp (70s) and a Special Cup according to Gerry (Hazelshould) who sold it in Sep 2015. My data runs deep.

So one way or another your example is going to help fill out the picture. Another brick in the wall of knowledge.

 

[DBT]

Interesting. Does your cymbal have the Thin Trademark Stamp or the CO Stamp?

I've already got one at that weight in my archives but it has different model ink


View attachment 590696
View attachment 590697

This style of ink is a bit earlier than yours (and the MEDIUM CRASH example) and is from a time when there were two separate ink stamps. One for weight class (MEDIUM THIN) and one for model (CRASH). At least I think it is earlier based on all the ink examples I've collected so far. I'm still working on the complete history of ink.

I presume we're looking at the change in ink (and maybe weight classes) coming in between the two cymbals, so in the period 1976ish to 1982. It might relfect the weight class changes creeping in as well. Either that or the weight difference and ink classification by the factory is at the limits of resolution for them and assignment to THIN or MEDIUM THIN is rather arbitrary at 1448g. The cymbal with the old style ink also had the Thin Stamp (70s) and a Special Cup according to Gerry (Hazelshould) who sold it in Sep 2015. My data runs deep.

So one way another your example is going to help fill out the picture. Another brick in the wall of knowledge.

It’s got the Co not the CO . Also , I’ve measured it every which way to Sunday and it’s definitely a Special Cup . Overall it’s 18 1/8 “ wide , anomaly …. not sure . Note : it sounds a lot like my 17” K Dark Custom 1380 ( the only non Hollow Logo I own ) . I bought this cymbal in late 79 from Red Bank Music ( NJ) . Up until a week ago it hadn’t seen the light of day since about 1984.

 

[DBT]

@zenstat : At some point I’ll catalog all 22 Hollow Logo’s according to model groups with pics and send it all to you to pick through when you “ have time “ if you want . All but 2 I’ve had since they were new .

 

[Tarkus]

As I just made some images of my 18 inch, here they are:

Stamp from another angle:

It plays stiffer than what I would have expected from this weight. As a rock crash in can cut even through loud bands, what I also didn't expect from an cymbal of the 60s. For me a typical example that there is no 'typical Avedis'.

 

[zenstat]

As I just made some images of my 18 inch, here they are:

View attachment 590746

View attachment 590747

View attachment 590748

Stamp from another angle:
View attachment 590749

View attachment 590750

It plays stiffer than what I would have expected from this weight. As a rock crash in can cut even through loud bands, what I also didn't expect from an cymbal of the 60s. For me a typical example that there is no 'typical Avedis'.

Your 18" shows a few interesting features. First it has the Medium Small Cup rather than the Special Cup. It is definitely smaller than Special Cup and measures out on screen as the Medium Small Cup. See if it is about 4.75" in diameter (Medium Small) rather than Medium (about 5.25" in diameter). Thanks to @Tama CW for discovering this new cup. We don't know what proportion of cymbals have it, nor over what years. It is most likely used on 17" - 20" cymbals in the 50s and 60s, but it is early days. It may be that nobody is looking closely enough and there are a reasonable number out there but they aren't noticed. If I had $5 for every time I see somebody post "I have one just like that" in a thread and when pictures arrive it has a different bulid spec, I'd be able to buy a few more cymbals for my reference collection.

Second, have a look at the lathing on the top vs bottom. There are two zones on the top and the bottom and the locations are reversed. The contrast in tonal grooves on the top isn't as large as the bottom but I think it is there and not a trick of the light. In any event we've seen that pattern of smaller tonal groove lathing in a distinct inner zone before. We don't know why, but somebody created it that way. It might have to do with the profile, and the highest point of the curve coincides with the lathing change. We've only just started to formalize our language for describing these differences.

From my perspective the reason we don't know about a "typical Avedis" is that there is lots of natural variation. The natural variation sits against a background of patterned differences in models, technology changes over the decades, and variation between individual craftsmen. My methodology is to begin to formalize our descriptions then classify the cymbals we know about by lots of variables, then look for patterns in the data which correspond to known factors like models, and changes of technology. The variation which is left over may be substantial, some of it like individual craftsman effects we probably won't ever get a handle on. But that doesn't mean we won't see some patterns emerge over the noise of individual cymbal variation.

 

[JazzDrumGuy]

I have a 60's A "sizzle" and I want to say it's 1600g-ish? I can check later.....

 

[Tama CW]

I wouldn't get overly focused on only a trans stamp 18. You can find a very good one in the 50's large stamps and small stamps as well.
And a couple years ago I ran across a 70's 18" A at 1225 gm that was just perfect for that era.

My current 18's A lineup: (and this after looking at around 3 dozen of them).

Trans stamp - Type 2 - 983 gm
Large stamp LS2 - 1475 gm....part of 50's LS set.
Large stamp HB LS1 "Trixon" - 1414 gm
Small stamp 50's - 1280 gm.
Small stamp 60's - 1425 gm.....part of my 60's set.

And no two of them sound that much alike.

My favorite of the group is the 1280 gm small stamp. Go figure. It's better than any of the trans and large stamps I've run into. Very different for
small stamp imo.....and it has a glassy quality similar to the pre-trans 18's. And the 1st time I ran across the 4-3/4" medium small cup. It was paired up with
a trans stamp 20 on a '66 Slingerland Jazz kit. I didn't think anything of that bell for the first couple years I had it. It was only when Zenstat saw a picture of it
that he sensed it didn't match other commonly known bell sizes. I owned it.....he "discovered" it.

 

[mtarrani]

Your 18" shows a few interesting features. First it has the Medium Small Cup rather than the Special Cup. It is definitely smaller than Special Cup and measures out on screen as the Medium Small Cup. See if it is about 4.75" in diameter (Medium Small) rather than Medium (about 5.25" in diameter). Thanks to @Tama CW for discovering this new cup. We don't know what proportion of cymbals have it, nor over what years. It is most likely used on 17" - 20" cymbals in the 50s and 60s, but it is early days. It may be that nobody is looking closely enough and there are a reasonable number out there but they aren't noticed. If I had $5 for every time I see somebody post "I have one just like that" in a thread and when pictures arrive it has a different bulid spec, I'd be able to buy a few more cymbals for my reference collection.

Second, have a look at the lathing on the top vs bottom. There are two zones on the top and the bottom and the locations are reversed. The contrast in tonal grooves on the top isn't as large as the bottom but I think it is there and not a trick of the light. In any event we've seen that pattern of smaller tonal groove lathing in a distinct inner zone before. We don't know why, but somebody created it that way. It might have to do with the profile, and the highest point of the curve coincides with the lathing change. We've only just started to formalize our language for describing these differences.


View attachment 590833


View attachment 590834

From my perspective the reason we don't know about a "typical Avedis" is that there is lots of natural variation. The natural variation sits against a background of patterned differences in models, technology changes over the decades, and variation between individual craftsmen. My methodology is to begin to formalize our descriptions then classify the cymbals we know about by lots of variables, then look for patterns in the data which correspond to known factors like models, and changes of technology. The variation which is left over may be substantial, some of it like individual craftsman effects we probably won't ever get a handle on. But that doesn't mean we won't see some patterns emerge over the noise of individual cymbal variation.

On lathing - I watched a video with Paul Francis when we was still with Zildjian in an interview/discussion with some British drum shop owner. I cannot remember the identifying details of the video, but I do recall Paul saying that each finishing lathe operator had their own signature style of lathing, which I thought was interesting. I chalked it up to being one more causal factor in the variation between and among Zildjian's from the same period, same dimensions and same model line. If the senior moment fog lifts I'll try to find the video. I believe it was circa 2015 or 2016.

 

[zenstat]

On lathing - I watched a video with Paul Francis when we was still with Zildjian in an interview/discussion with some British drum shop owner. I cannot remember the identifying details of the video, but I do recall Paul saying that each finishing lathe operator had their own signature style of lathing, which I thought was interesting. I chalked it up to being one more causal factor in the variation between and among Zildjian's from the same period, same dimensions and same model line. If the senior moment fog lifts I'll try to find the video. I believe it was circa 2015 or 2016.

I know the one you mean and will have it saved somewhere. It's just a question of which somewhere. When I started off I had a text file for each major cymbal brand and topic. The got unwieldy. Then for some years I was creating Buckminster Fuller inspired "chronofiles" for Zildjian, Paiste, Other. One for each quarter. That got unwieldy so in 2021 I just went to three annual files. Now I've got to go through all of them and bring all the information together in one place. In earlier times I could use spotlight (on a mac) to find things quickly enough, but not anymore.

Stay tuned...

 

[JimmyM]

I know the one you mean and will have it saved somewhere. It's just a question of which somewhere. When I started off I had a text file for each major cymbal brand and topic. The got unwieldy. Then for some years I was creating Buckminster Fuller inspired "chronofiles" for Zildjian, Paiste, Other. One for each quarter. That got unwieldy so in 2021 I just went to three annual files. Now I've got to go through all of them and bring all the information together in one place. In earlier times I could use spotlight (on a mac) to find things quickly enough, but not anymore.

Stay tuned...

Well that sure is cool you threw yourself on the grenade. Sounds like you keep better records than these companies ever did.

 

[Tarkus]

Your 18" shows a few interesting features. First it has the Medium Small Cup rather than the Special Cup. It is definitely smaller than Special Cup and measures out on screen as the Medium Small Cup. See if it is about 4.75" in diameter (Medium Small) rather than Medium (about 5.25" in diameter). Thanks to @Tama CW for discovering this new cup. We don't know what proportion of cymbals have it, nor over what years. It is most likely used on 17" - 20" cymbals in the 50s and 60s, but it is early days. It may be that nobody is looking closely enough and there are a reasonable number out there but they aren't noticed. If I had $5 for every time I see somebody post "I have one just like that" in a thread and when pictures arrive it has a different bulid spec, I'd be able to buy a few more cymbals for my reference collection.

Second, have a look at the lathing on the top vs bottom. There are two zones on the top and the bottom and the locations are reversed. The contrast in tonal grooves on the top isn't as large as the bottom but I think it is there and not a trick of the light. In any event we've seen that pattern of smaller tonal groove lathing in a distinct inner zone before. We don't know why, but somebody created it that way. It might have to do with the profile, and the highest point of the curve coincides with the lathing change. We've only just started to formalize our language for describing these differences.


View attachment 590833


View attachment 590834

From my perspective the reason we don't know about a "typical Avedis" is that there is lots of natural variation. The natural variation sits against a background of patterned differences in models, technology changes over the decades, and variation between individual craftsmen. My methodology is to begin to formalize our descriptions then classify the cymbals we know about by lots of variables, then look for patterns in the data which correspond to known factors like models, and changes of technology. The variation which is left over may be substantial, some of it like individual craftsman effects we probably won't ever get a handle on. But that doesn't mean we won't see some patterns emerge over the noise of individual cymbal variation.

Thank you for this analysis, Steve

Unbelievable how much more you 'read' out of my images, more than I could see having the cymbal in my hands.

As you might see, I think this is what you call the 'Medium Small Cup' having 12 cm diameter, roughly 4.75":

Looking a bit closer to the lathing, I think there are three different groove styles, not four. The 'larger tonal grooves' on the under side is basically the same style than the 'smaller tonal grooves' on the upper side.
So, there is an area of 'large tonal grooves' on the inner part of the upper side, 'medium tonal grooves' on the outer part of upper side and the outer part of under side, and finally 'small tonal grooves' on the inner part of the under side.


What I didn't mention about this cymbal yet is this 'dent' where the stamp is embossed:
It's difficult to see and it took me a while since I noticed it. But when I saw this the first time at the under side, I thought the cymbal is damaged (and I was sure I didn't damage it). The dent is exactly where the stamp is and I was told this is 'typical' for the thinner specimen of Avedis cymbals. Indeed I saw this in the meantime at other cymbals as well. "It's not a bug, it's a feature."

Very difficult to get this dent imaged:

Same place upper side:

 

[zenstat]

On lathing - I watched a video with Paul Francis when we was still with Zildjian in an interview/discussion with some British drum shop owner. I cannot remember the identifying details of the video, but I do recall Paul saying that each finishing lathe operator had their own signature style of lathing, which I thought was interesting. I chalked it up to being one more causal factor in the variation between and among Zildjian's from the same period, same dimensions and same model line. If the senior moment fog lifts I'll try to find the video. I believe it was circa 2015 or 2016.

I've just re-listened to these two, which are chock full of information. But I didn't hear a specific mention about each finishing lathe operator having their own signature style.

Might we will find it somewhere else.

 

[Old Drummer]

I'm currently looking for an 18" old A trans stamp, but as I've never owned an 18" before I have no idea which weight I should aim for.
It should be a nice Crash/ride as a LSR for my 2130g 20" trans stamp. I'm not a big fan of light cymbals as they lack projection IMO
so I was thinking a weight around 1800gr might be perfect.
I would really appreciate if some of you could share your own experiences and maybe even some soundfiles of your perfect 18" old A.

Thanks!

I reasoned exactly this way before I bought an 18" old A weighing a tad over 1800g and I hated that cymbal! It was the loudest and most annoying cymbal I ever owned.

Fortunately, I found a buyer who actually wanted a loud old A (he didn't mention "annoying"). The day he bought it was one of the happiest of my life.

Now my 18" is 1630g--more ride than crash--and I'm quite happy with it. It's not a Zildjian, though, so comparing the two is difficult.

Anyway, I would personally steer clear of 1800g in an 18", though since I sold my old A at that weight to a guy who seemed to want it, I suppose some people like 'em this heavy.