NOS black label 20" Paiste 2002 Heavy Ride "Jazz Rock"

Heartbeat

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Black label (1980) 20" Paiste 2002 Heavy Ride from the Paiste vault. Paiste labeled these "Jazz Rock" for a brief time in '80-'81. I played it once, so there might be a stick mark, but this thing is in excellent new condition (thought I'd use it with a band, but...no gigs). Weighs 2760g. A beautiful cymbal! $300 shipped (Paypal) to lower 48 only. No trades, etc. Thank you for looking.

Edit: Video below, in comment #11.

Paiste2002_20Heavy1980.jpg
 
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Dumpy

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Black label (1980) 20" Paiste 2002 Heavy Ride from the Paiste vault. Paiste labeled these "Jazz Rock" for a brief time in '80-'81. I played it once, so there might be a stick mark, but this thing is in excellent new condition (thought I'd use it with a band, but...no gigs). Weighs 2760g. A beautiful cymbal! $300 shipped (Paypal) to lower 48 only. No trades, etc. Thank you for looking.

View attachment 488032
If you could convince Mrs. Dumpy that I NEED this, I WAAAANNNNTTT. But, otherwise, GLWS.

Beautiful pie.
 

toddlittle827

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I believe the Heavy Rides got the additional "Jazz Rock" stamp starting in 1978. That's when the Heavy Hats got the "Rock" stamp added

That is a beautiful example
 
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Gcort49

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What makes it a 'jazz rock' cymbal, other than name? I read somewhere (a forum, perhaps 'cymbalholic'), that it was just a marketing name Paiste gave to a much heavier weight 2002
 

Heartbeat

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What makes it a 'jazz rock' cymbal, other than name? I read somewhere (a forum, perhaps 'cymbalholic'), that it was just a marketing name Paiste gave to a much heavier weight 2002
As far as I know, that's correct. In general, this one is lighter than today's Heavy by maybe 30-40g, give or take.
 

Dumpy

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The fact this is STILL here is CRIMINAL! This is one of those Paiste enigmas that shouldn’t exist in B8, yet it does! Truly a marvelous specimen! I may have to save my scheckles and have it delivered to the hair salon and sneak it into the house! I love Mrs. Dumpy to bits, but she learned all my secrets and Paiste knowledge and found one in poor shape aesthetically for half the price. Can’t argue with the lady <3

Buy this one. It’s gorgeous AND it’s a GREAT cymbal!
 

michiganice91

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I've heard this called the "2oo2 dark ride" in some circles. Got any videos posted of this one?
 

cymbal.wiki

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I've heard this called the "2oo2 dark ride" in some circles.
Those circles have yet to produce a single photograph nor catalog page nor price list nor ad. So the wiki is still waiting for better info.

Once upon a time (2015) there was a thread about his finding a 2002 Dark Ride in a shop.


Anybody who has information is welcome to contribute to documenting this. There is an internet claim that it is listed in one of the Paiste Profiles or some sort of official literature. Anybody seen that?
 
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Burps

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Those circles have yet to produce a single photograph nor catalog page nor price list nor ad. So the wiki is still waiting for better info.

Once upon a time (2015) there was a thread about his finding a 2002 Dark Ride in a shop.


Anybody who has information is welcome to contribute to documenting this. There is an internet claim that it is listed in one of the Paiste Profiles or some sort of official literature. Anybody seen that?
After reading this, I just painstakingly looked through Paiste Profiles Books 2 and 3 and did not find one listing of a 2002 Dark Ride. It's possible I missed it, but I took my time and did not see one.
 

cymbal.wiki

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found a Heavy "Jazz Rock" with a 1979 serial for sale. Let's see if I can find a 1978 out there.
1978 serial number sighted on a Jazz Rock. 2648g. I had it in my files from Dec 2019. I'm currently updating the wiki pages to have a separate page for the Jazz Rock and the Heavy Ride with mentions on each page about the other page. It will take me a little while to complete the separation and updates so please excuse any temporary mess.
 

Dumpy

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I’ve heard dribs and drabs about a 2K2 Dark Ride, and likely am confusing things I have seen over the years. I know I could’ve had a Sound Creation Dark back in the late 80s from a music store that was way overpriced. Even spending full retail then would’ve been a good investment...

The Jazz Rock Heavy is the darkest 2K2 I have ever heard pre Signature Dark Energy.
 

toddlittle827

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There was no 2002 Dark Ride.

This misconception comes from the Rogers price sheets (Paiste's US distributor at the time) of the time period.

When Rogers first started selling Paiste, they only carried the 2002 line and one other cymbal: the 602 Dark Ride. However, the price sheets don't specify that the Dark Ride is a 602. It is lumped in with the 2002s, but one can tell from the very expensive price (far more than the different 22" 2002s) that it was the 602 DR.


Now, if you look at the hammering of the early 2002 Heavy Rides, the pattern is very similar/the same to that of the 602 Dark Ride. I think they changed that pattern up a bit on the 2002 HR sometime in the early/mid-80s. So you can say in a sense that the early 2002 Heavy Ride is the B8 version of the Dark Ride.


The 2002 "Jazz Rock" Heavy Ride is NOT a separate cymbal from the 2002 Heavy Ride. It is merely a standard Heavy Ride with an extra ink stamp that was put on for a few years, probably to cash in on the popularity of fusion and help Rogers sell more cymbals.

2002 Heavy Rides made from 1975 to 1977 don't have the extra stamp. In 1978 they started adding the extra Jazz Rock stamp and then took it back off early in the Red logo phase. The same with the Heavy Hi Hats which got an extra "Rock" stamp starting in 1978 until early in the Red label phase.

If you compare a Jazz Rock Heavy from 1980 to a Heavy from 1975-77 you will see they are the same cymbal. You won't find plain BL 2002 Heavy Rides with 1978-81 serial numbers without the extra stamp, proving again this was a production tweak, not 2 different cymbals.
 
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Dumpy

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There was no 2002 Dark Ride.

This misconception comes from the Rogers price sheets (Paiste's US distributor at the time) of the time period.

When Rogers first started selling Paiste, they only carried the 2002 line and one other cymbal: the 602 Dark Ride. However, the price sheets don't specify that the Dark Ride is a 602. It is lumped in with the 2002s, but one can tell from the very expensive price (far more than the different 22" 2002s) that it was the 602 DR.


Now, if you look at the hammering of the early 2002 Heavy Rides, the pattern is very similar/the same to that of the 602 Dark Ride. I think they changed that pattern up a bit on the 2002 HR sometime in the early/mid-80s. So you can say in a sense that the early 2002 Heavy Rides are the B8 version of the Dark Ride.


The 2002 "Jazz Rock" Heavy Ride is NOT a separate cymbal from the 2002 Heavy Ride. It is merely a standard Heavy Ride with an extra ink stamp that was put on for a few years.

2002 Heavy Rides made from 1975 to 1977 don't have the extra stamp. In 1978 they started adding the extra Jazz Rock stamp and then took it back off early in the Red logo phase. The same with the Heavy Hats which got an extra "Rock" stamp starting in 1978.

If you compare a Jazz Rock Heavy from 1980 to a Heavy from 1975-77 you will see the are the same cymbal.
My cymbal sounds like the sample pretty much, and it’s a red label “Jazz Rock” Heavy.
 

toddlittle827

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There are a handful or so misconceptions about vintage Paiste cymbals that persist from the early days of the internet when people tried to puzzle things out about the company's history or certain cymbals/lines without having enough Paiste-Ludwig-Rogers catalogs to do so properly.

1. The whole 2002 Jazz Rock Ride / Rock Hats thing, which I explained above.

2. Paiste started putting serial numbers on the cymbals in 1970 or 1971. (Paiste Customer Service still peddles this falsehood)

This is wrong. Serials started in 1972 and probably only in the Swiss factory. This misconception stems from people not understanding that the color silkscreen logos were not introduced until early 1981 not in 1980 and that a 0 and 1 first digit on a Black Label Paiste means 1980 not 1970 or very early 1981 not 1971. Also contributing was that people didn't (and many still don't) get that the serial numbering done by the German factory uses a different system and that the first digit does not indicate the year.

This can also be proved another way. Original Giant Beats, Stambul 65, Stambul, Dixie and Super lines were around in 1970 and 1971 not in 1980 and 1981. No cymbals from these lines have ever been found with a 0 or 1 starting the serial. They have been found with 2, 3, and 4 first digits, again showing that the numbering started in 1972.


3. Nickel-silver Stambuls were only made up until 1964 and then became of B8 when the line was replaced by Stambul 65 in 1965.

This is false. The Stambul 65 was introduced in 1965 but it always a separate, distinct series from Stambul and they were sold alongside each other from 1965-1973. The Stambul line did eventually switch over to the B8 alloy but this happened sometime between 1968-1972, most likely sometime in or right around 1971. Stambul also outlasted Stambul 65 as it was made through 1977.

4. The German factory made all of Paiste's NS12 budget lines and not the "good" B8 cymbals.

No, in the old days the German factory made all of Paiste's B8 lines including Stambul 65, 2002s, RUDEs, 2000s, 3000s etc. The only cymbals the German factory didn't make were Sound Creation and perhaps the original Giant Beats (i have yet to see one but og Swiss GBs are kind of rare as it is - German examples may exist out there, wouldn't surprise me). There are also a small number of Formula 602s out there that are stamped Made in Germany, although Paiste has told me these weren't actually "made" there, but only finished in Germany.

Americans who started playing in the 70s and 80s aren't use to seeing German Paistes of this vintage as the Swiss factory did all the exporting. The German made "pro" cymbals were made for the domestic German market.

5. When comparing cymbals from the same line, the Swiss made cymbals are better than the German made cymbals.

This is again false. Apples to Apples, the German made cymbals tend to be a little heavier and darker sounding than their Swiss cousins, but they are of the same quality. This misconception likely comes from people comparing a cymbal like a Swiss made B8 Dixie from the mid 1970s to an earlier NS12 German Dixie from the early 60s. That is not a fair comparison as one must account for a) the different alloys and b) improvement in production techniques over time. An NS12 Dixie from the late 60s is probably a better cymbal than an NS12 Dixie from the early 60s as Paiste was continuing to get better at making cymbals.

6. Paiste 404 and 505 came out in 1974.

Wrong, both lines were released in 1978 replacing the Stambul and Dixie. Paiste catalogs prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.


I could go on, but I don't want to bore you all to death. lol
 
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toddlittle827

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My cymbal sounds like the sample pretty much, and it’s a red label “Jazz Rock” Heavy.
Dumpy, what's the serial on your Red Jazz Rock. Would be good if we could figure out when they stopped putting the extra stamp on. I think it was '82 or '83. Can't remember anymore.
 


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