Offbeat metronome problem

Kcmcc

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alright, so I've been spending the last few months (even before lockdown, but especially since) trying to go back and really work on my drumming from a fundamental level. As a teen I just played along to classic rock records, and for most of my 20s and 30s, band practice was the only practice I got, even though I was gigging pretty regularly. I mean basic ground level stuff like KLRKLRKLRKLRKLRL (16ths) against quarter note left foot, or KKLRKKLRKKLR (triplets) against the same. Also just getting in the basic metronome work I never did.

ANYWAY: I was able to hear the quarter note metronome on the offbeat ands Immediately. First time I tried it, it just made sense. On the other hand, trying to hear it as swung offbeat eighths (third note of the triplet) was almost impossible (I can get it maybe every third time I try) and I have a lot of difficulty hearing it on sixteenths - like if I try REALLY hard after about a minute I can get it to mentally fall on the "a's" - BUT once I start playing it's clear I'm hearing it as a swung 16th (which makes sense cause alot of the old school soul/R&B new orleans funk etc I listen to has a swung or implied swung 16th note feel).
SO: any tricks to get the offbeat pulses in my ear more quickly?
 

RIDDIM

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Your paragraph takes multiple readings to grasp, so I'm not entirely clear on what you're trying to do. On the off chance I'm right, though, have you tried programming the 3d note of a series of triplets?
 

Kcmcc

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Your paragraph takes multiple readings to grasp, so I'm not entirely clear on what you're trying to do. On the off chance I'm right, though, have you tried programming the 3d note of a series of triplets?
Yeah there was a lot of rambling prelude there. What I'm talking about is using a consistent quarter note tempo, but placing it in an odd place so as to practice time without the downbeat reference. What I think I'm gonna end up doing in the short run is programming some long loops in garage band where I get the full measure for a couple measures but then everything drops out but the offbeat click I am looking for. And . . . just slowing down and counting out loud longer.
 

toddbishop

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I guess you have to go slow enough to hear clearly the combined rhythm of what you're playing + the metronome, and play simply enough that you can hear it and maintain it. I don't know if counting out loud helps with this, because it's mainly a listening and timing exercise.
 

Seb77

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I'd also recommend going slow first, 60bpm max.
The thing is you "place" the metronome on the offbeat by playing the drum sound (I would recommend bass drum) after it, and hearing your drum as the new beat. It's form of tricking youself into it.

Even 8s: click-boom-click-boom- (click being the mtronome, boom being your drum)
With triplet/shuffle, you play your drum earlier than with even 8s:
triplet/shuffle: click-boom-pause-click-boom-pause etc.

You could start one step earlier by playing triplets on the hi-hat to that (slow) click, then adding the bass drum on the hh after the click. Again, you need to trick yourself here and move from hearing the click as the beat to hearing the drum as the beat.
 

RIDDIM

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Yeah there was a lot of rambling prelude there. What I'm talking about is using a consistent quarter note tempo, but placing it in an odd place so as to practice time without the downbeat reference. What I think I'm gonna end up doing in the short run is programming some long loops in garage band where I get the full measure for a couple measures but then everything drops out but the offbeat click I am looking for. And . . . just slowing down and counting out loud longer.
Go to the apps section of your phone and see what metronomes are available. Read the reviews on them and see which will do what you want. I use Pro Metronome by EMU lab. It does what I described in my first post. Failing that, just do what Todd said.
 

RhythmGJ

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If I understand you correctly, Kcmcc, I’d do the exact opposite. I’d *double* the tempo of the metronome. Which is exactly what a wise live or studio drummer will want when working with a click. If you really want to get it down to open quarter notes to practice the spaces, at least start with that double time guide. The point of a metronome is to establish the time for you. You have to hear it for that to be accomplished.


GJ
 

Seb77

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If I understand you correctly, Kcmcc, I’d do the exact opposite. I’d *double* the tempo of the metronome. Which is exactly what a wise live or studio drummer will want when working with a click. If you really want to get it down to open quarter notes to practice the spaces, at least start with that double time guide. The point of a metronome is to establish the time for you. You have to hear it for that to be accomplished.
Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. If you have a tempo and want to hear/play a shuffle, you cannot double the metronome speed since this would equal even eights. I like hearing a reaosnably fast click/subdivisons myself, but in the case of a shuffle you would have to go from quarter notes to triplet subdivision. I have done this when recording slow swing/shuffle or 12/8 tempos, listen to the triplets. This goes for recording.
For practice, for improving your time feel, it is common to use as slower click , not only for slow tempos, but also to have to play on your own in-between clicks, conscnetrating on keeping time. In this case, to figure out that swung off-beat click thing, which is what Kevin's post was about, I recommend choosing a slow tempo for both click and groove to start with.
 

RhythmGJ

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Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. If you have a tempo and want to hear/play a shuffle, you cannot double the metronome speed since this would equal even eights. I like hearing a reaosnably fast click/subdivisons myself, but in the case of a shuffle you would have to go from quarter notes to triplet subdivision. I have done this when recording slow swing/shuffle or 12/8 tempos, listen to the triplets. This goes for recording.
For practice, for improving your time feel, it is common to use as slower click , not only for slow tempos, but also to have to play on your own in-between clicks, conscnetrating on keeping time. In this case, to figure out that swung off-beat click thing, which is what Kevin's post was about, I recommend choosing a slow tempo for both click and groove to start with.
The post, as I read it, was not only about Swung/triplet notes. Again, there is a reason pros double the click. But, to each his own.


GJ
 

Kcmcc

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Doubling the click would defeat the purpose of what I'm trying to do with THIS exercise, though it's certainly useful in general (hell for work on certain beats I will give myself click on all the sixteenths!)
To work on getting used to "hearing" it better, i programmed this in the metronome app (in "16/4" but really in 4/4 with all the 16ths available
Thats the downbeat of the measure, a strong backbeat on 2, and then the "a"s for the rest of the measure. But with the new puppy and the toddler at hom, practice time might be short again.
Screenshot_20200518-132439.png
 

TRstix

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What I'm talking about is using a consistent quarter note tempo, but placing it in an odd place so as to practice time without the downbeat reference.
You have to have the beat referenced somewhere. It doesn’t have to be heard, seen, or felt by using a metronome, and it doesn’t necessarily need to played by you, but it must at least be in your mind. But I think it’s best if you can reference it audibly in some fashion, by either playing it (as you said, with your left foot) or counting it. The goal, as I understand it, is to be able to feel (and express) the steady pulse of the beat while hearing a single note of a subdivision on your metronome.

I would start by being able to count the subdivision while putting emphasis on the subdivision you want to hear in your metronome. I count triplets as “one and a, two and a.” So if you want to hear the third subdivision of a triplet, I’d suggest first being able to count triplets with an emphasis on that subdivision, “ one and A, two and A.” Then I’d try referencing the beat at the same time as counting with the emphasis on the subdivision. You can tap you leg, clap your hands, or play with your left foot, which I’m guessing means your hi hat. First I’d try to do this without a metronome. At some point try it with the metronome on the beat, just to make sure your time is good.

Then, again without the metronome, start your counting with the subdivision you want to hear and that which you’re emphasizing in your counting - “A one and, A two and.” I believe this will help when you go to the next step of working with the metronome again. Then put on a metronome. It doesn’t have to be any kind of fancy metronome. You simply need to hear a steady sound. Think of the sound you hear as the subdivision you have been emphasizing in your count. Again, start your count with the emphized subdivision and with the metronome click.

Once you can do that, while doing it try playing the beat, either on your lap, clapping, or with your left foot. You can also try only counting the emphized subdivision and the beat. Don’t count any other subdivisions.

None of this requires a special metronome or programming. It’s a matter of adjusting your point of view. Certainly, you may be aided by programming some more complex reference. Your post showing what you programmed with your metronome app looks helpful, but it references the beat as well as a back beat on “two.”

Interestingly to me, your first post referenced going back to basics. I believe what you’re trying to accomplish isn’t basic. It’s interesting, and it can be difficult, but I wouldn’t call it basic. Hearing the metronome on the “and” of a binary subdivision is helpful, and a little more commonplace. I also think it is more practical than your other goals - hearing only a single subdivision on the third of a triplet or the fourth of a group of four. I think it may be more practical to try hearing all three subdivisions of a triplet while playing in straight or douple time.

Earlier, someone mentioned what “pros” listen to as they play. From what I’ve read, most pros listen to some type of groove that they program that usually has a variety of sounds and subdivisions. As I’m sure you’re aware, burying the beat can be an issue. That why it’s helpful to hear more than a simple click on the beat. But I think the ability to play with a metronome only making a sound on one subdivision, as you are trying to accomplish, is an admirable goal, and theoretically pretty cool, but it’s not basic, and dare I say, may not be too practical.

Sorry if I sound too pedantic.
 

Tymp2002

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alright, so I've been spending the last few months (even before lockdown, but especially since) trying to go back and really work on my drumming from a fundamental level. As a teen I just played along to classic rock records, and for most of my 20s and 30s, band practice was the only practice I got, even though I was gigging pretty regularly. I mean basic ground level stuff like KLRKLRKLRKLRKLRL (16ths) against quarter note left foot, or KKLRKKLRKKLR (triplets) against the same. Also just getting in the basic metronome work I never did.

ANYWAY: I was able to hear the quarter note metronome on the offbeat ands Immediately. First time I tried it, it just made sense. On the other hand, trying to hear it as swung offbeat eighths (third note of the triplet) was almost impossible (I can get it maybe every third time I try) and I have a lot of difficulty hearing it on sixteenths - like if I try REALLY hard after about a minute I can get it to mentally fall on the "a's" - BUT once I start playing it's clear I'm hearing it as a swung 16th (which makes sense cause alot of the old school soul/R&B new orleans funk etc I listen to has a swung or implied swung 16th note feel).
SO: any tricks to get the offbeat pulses in my ear more quickly?
Have you tried using Benny Greb's Gap Click metronome? (Apple App Store)
 

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