Old 14" Zildjian Hi Hat Cymbal Info Needed

gkrk

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I've got an old/vintage 14" Zildjian that's very thin & lightweight (haven't weighed it yet but seems 500 grams or fewer).
The bell has an "angle" design that makes it appear to have been made to be the bottom in a hihat pair, likes it's made
to sit on the seat. There is also something of a flange, just about half an inch deep, around the edge; you can see it highlighted in the "patina." The stamp is kind of light with thin characters and without, I think, those three dots inside whatever that thing is. I've been thinking it's older than the '70s, but the '70s stamp on the Reverb info page seems the closest match.

Any ideas about what this is or might be would be great!
 

TPC

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Sounds like a 50's "flange hi-hat". Generally pretty nice cymbals.

Have any pic's?
 

gkrk

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Sounds like a 50's "flange hi-hat". Generally pretty nice cymbals.

Have any pic's?
I'm pretty sure it is a '50s flange hi hat and hoping someone here might have
a little more information, particularly regarding weights of top and bottom. This
is a nice cymbal. I used to use it as a splash/crash but decided not to mangle it
by doing that.
 

zenstat

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Like this?

14-flange-hats.jpg


The Reverb page isn't very helpful for identifying trademarks. Try mine. I cover the details of how to tell a late 50s Small Stamp from a 70s stamp


but yours could be even earlier. Flange hats go back to the Trans Stamp era. The 1948/9 year comes from an ad for Bop Flange Hats and a Zildjian catalog which is mentioned in Pinksterboer (The Cymbal Book, 1992, p150). For Trans Stamps see


Flange Hi Hats continued in production through the 1950s and early 1960s, then reappeared for a short time in the early 1970s with a larger flange and in heavier weights. The weight you suggest for it would be 50s not the 70s version. The flange size of about half an inch suggests 50s not 70s. 50s ones tend to be 600g - 800g in weight. The 70s Flange hat bottoms are like New Beat weights at 1100g - 1400g. The 50s ones were matched weights top and bottom (within 80g of one another). The 70s ones are like New Beats so the tops are lighter (950g to 1150g).

A picture of your trademark stamp is worth 1,000 of my words in terms of identification if you want more details beyond "likely 50s". I'd also love to see an image of what you describe as an "angle design" for the bell. The late 50s bell on mine (as pictured) is a little peaky.

I'm on leave head down doing research which includes getting pages up on this very topic. This one is preliminary


but it sheds some light on your question about using it as a crash. When Sabian took over the flange design they produced Sound Control crashes. Just don't break it by poor technique or over tightening the top bolt please. :glasses8:

Additional reading is to be found in a 2019 thread:


and a 2018 thread:


My info gets more complete as time goes by thanks to the many people who contribute their cymbal info to the cause. After saying I'm going to write it all up I am finally writing it all up.
 
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gkrk

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Like this?

View attachment 423400

The Reverb page isn't very helpful for identifying trademarks. Try mine. I cover the details of how to tell a late 50s Small Stamp from a 70s stamp


but yours could be even earlier. Flange hats go back to the Trans Stamp era. The 1948/9 year comes from an ad for Bop Flange Hats and a Zildjian catalog which is mentioned in Pinksterboer (The Cymbal Book, 1992, p150). For Trans Stamps see


Flange Hi Hats continued in production through the 1950s and early 1960s, then reappeared for a short time in the early 1970s with a larger flange and in heavier weights. The weight you suggest for it would be 50s not the 70s version. The flange size of about half an inch suggests 50s not 70s. 50s ones tend to be 600g - 800g in weight. The 70s Flange hat bottoms are like New Beat weights at 1100g - 1400g. The 50s ones were matched weights top and bottom (within 80g of one another). The 70s ones are like New Beats so the tops are lighter (950g to 1150g).

A picture of your trademark stamp is worth 1,000 of my words in terms of identification if you want more details beyond "likely 50s". I'd also love to see an image of what you describe as an "angle design" for the bell. The late 50s bell on mine (as pictured) is a little peaky.

I'm on leave head down doing research which includes getting pages up on this very topic. This one is preliminary


but it sheds some light on your question about using it as a crash. When Sabian took over the flange design they produced Sound Control crashes. Just don't break it by poor technique or over tightening the top bolt please. :glasses8:

Additional reading is to be found in a 2019 thread:


and a 2018 thread:


My info gets more complete as time goes by thanks to the many people who contribute their cymbal info to the cause. After saying I'm going to write it all up I am finally writing it all up.
Woof!! It'll take a bit of time to sort through the links/resources you've supplied, but I'll do it sooner than later. Your description of the bottom hat being "peaky" is interesting. I'll see if I can get a picture of this cymbal, bell / flange / stamp.
 

zenstat

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Sorry. I didn't mean to burden you with too much reading material. It is there in case you want to see if my summary fits the previous discussions.

The bell on the bottom hat is "peaky" but so is the bell on the top hat of the pair. As far as I know it's a 50s bell die thing, or a lathing style thing. It isn't specific to bottom hats. And it is very subtle.

flange-hats-top.jpg

flange-hats-bot.jpg


Here is a 14" Sabian AA Sound Control Crash

SabianSC14top.jpg


SabianSC14bot.jpg


and a much earlier one where you can see how the flange is hammered in

AA-Sound-Control-Top.JPG


AA-Sound-Control-Bot.JPG
 

gkrk

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The "peaked" aspect on my cymbal is hard to miss, you can really feel and see it on top and under the bell, so I'm so inclined to go with "subtle" as a descriptor. But it's the only cymbal I've ever had with this going on.

Your flanged cymbal, on the left, looks similar to mine. What are the weights of that pair?

I've got an old Sabian AA Sound Control 20" ride I got at the same local shop. and around the same time (1991), where I got the 14" Zildjian. The 20" was $50 used, and the 14" may have only been $20 or so because the owner couldn't find the stamp because it's so blended into the patina'd finish (but I saw it with a little work and only told him after I'd paid; same thing happened with an early '60s Radio King snare at another shop in the area [1992], solid shell and all: The owner'd gotten it in a box with other stuff at an auction and thought it was an MIJ knock off so I got it for $60).

I'll try to get a weight and some photos soon.
 

zenstat

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That is some fine buying you did there.

My hats were advertised at about 740g each. Since then I've weighed them and they came out as 746g (the plain top) over 732g (the flanged bottom). Several others have reported tops being slightly heavier than bottoms for these. That seems to be within tolerance when a person at the factory matched them for sound by ear, not exact weight specifications.
 

Tama CW

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Great stuff by Zenstat as usual.

500 gm in a 14" hat would be ultra paper thin. That's about as light as I've ever seen one. If not for the flat flange, it would normally bend under its own weight when held in the fingers (maybe it does anyways)....very floppy like a piece of thin sheet aluminum. Any 14" under 550-600 gm is getting really light and those are very scarce.
 
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gkrk

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Got the cymbal weighed at the Fed Ex place: 1.2 pounds = 544.311 grams.

The flange is subtle I was noticing just now when I brought it in from the car.
So subtle that it's almost not there, just dips at that last 1/2" like the where the
waves crash at the beach.

Pictures when I have a minute.
 

zenstat

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Thanks for the weight. This is where having a lot of weight data for 14" cymbals can add some context.

I'm not up to producing an updated graph yet, but here is an earlier graph of 14" pairs



I use a short convention for Era names here because it is better on graphs. T is Trans Stamp L is Large Stamp S is Small Stamp and 60s 70s 80s and M for Modern (90s and later) are hopefully self explanatory. For more details and definitions see


Since that was done I've added weights of

502g
509g
510g
510g (yes two of them but one 1930s, one 1940s)
517g
518g
544g (Small stamp late 50s)
554g
572g (Small stamp late 50s)

All but two in that list are Trans Stamps or earlier, which is once again why I would either like to see a photograph of the trademark stamp of yours, or have you identify it using my detailed images and pointers on what to look for.
 

gkrk

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Whew! My eyes are shot! The H/E thing is suggesting, to me at least, that this a '70s cymbal. The H seems almost between the E (in MADE) and the I in IN) so the E is to the left and not right under the H. I'm probably missing something. Does seem the stamp is "small," like an inch high or a little more; hard to say because the Ottoman fades to the top. I will try to get a good picture in the morning.
 

Tama CW

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Sounds like your typical weak 70's stamp. The 50's small stamps tend to be pretty strongly impressed. The trans stamps often are missing central details in the top half of the stamp. If no 3 dots, it's either 70's or 50's and earlier. 544 gms in a 70's would be rare for sure....not that it adds much of an extra value above it's already light weight. I've never held a 70's under around 780 gms. And if they made them really light, they got crushed during the rock years....and replaced with heavier ones. The type 1 and 2 trans stamps don't have H over E alignment either. So there's a glitch that most people don't know.
 

zenstat

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A picture of the cymbal from the top and from the bottom in "dramatic" side light is usually enough to tell without having a picture of the trademark. There are differences in hammering and lathing which tell those of us who know what to look for. This will usually allow us to reliability determine 70s vs 50s with just a quick look.

The type 1 and 2 trans stamps don't have H over E alignment either. So there's a glitch that most people don't know.
Well if we're being complete...

Trans 1 has the E to the left so yes that alignment is like the 70s. It isn't as far over as the 70s stamp. And there are other differences which allow us to tell a Trans Stamp from a 70s stamp...

trans1


If you have one of these look to the generic identification features of the Trans Stamps in addition to the generally useful thing that they are almost always more firmly pressed in on the far left and right.



Trans 2 has the H over E alignment like the late 50s or 60s but is unique in having the AVEDIS being much narrower (L to R) than other trademarks. There are other differences but that's enough to be identified. When I port all my existing timeline info over to cymbal.wiki I'll update the images and description for these.

17-941-stamp.jpg


Trans 3 has the H over E alignment like the late 50s or 60s so we know it isn't a 70s right away

type III


Trans 4 has a different alignment with the E over to the right. It also has lots of other unusual features which allow recognition even when poorly pressed in with lots of portions missing.

Type IV
 

Tama CW

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Thanks for filling in the details Zenstat. I just wanted to point out to the OP that hanging one's hat on letter alignment is not fool proof. And in my mind, only the type 3 has decent letter alignment. Even the type 2 is slightly mis-aligned to my eye. But I had forgotten how much the type 4 is off. I see so many type 3's vs. the other ones.....that after a while that's all you remember. Fortunately, the trans stamps have other key features to focus on, and their prices between variants don't really amount to much.....which all helps. OP still owes us a stamp photo....but it does sound like a 70's alignment.
 

gkrk

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Here are some awful photos. Is there some clever way to do this?
20200116_090747.jpg
20200116_091048.jpg
20200116_090918.jpg
20200116_090840.jpg
 

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gkrk

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And, if it matters, the mounting hole is 7/16" in diameter.
 

zenstat

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From the photos of the top and bottom that is a 50s not a 70s cymbal. The mounting hole of 7/16" also tells us that it is 50s not 70s. The changeover to 1/2" mounting holes happened in the late 50s. Thanks to Cliff DeArment for the data on the changeover. Here is my description:


I need to have a closer look :blink: at the trademark stamp photos and see if I can work something out. Not the clearest photos I've ever dealt with, but not the worst either.

*edit*

I don't think there are dots after the letters U S A which means Trans Stamp given the other attributes. You could use a magnifying glass and look really closely to see if there are dots (periods or whatever you call them). Is it U.S.A. or U S A?

Within the Trans Stamps the distinction between RMAA alignment and KMBA alignment distinguishes 1 and 2 (KMBA) from 3 and 4 (RMAA). You can see that in my photos above. Given what I see I'm picking Type 3. That's also the most common in my records. Not every Trans Stamp has the left and right edges pressed in more deeply and yours seems to be one of those.

Let's see what others see. My eyes aren't always the best.
 
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