OT: Credit card charge backs

[bellbrass]

Definitely off topic: I was recently sold a counterfeit item on eBay. eBay would not refund my money from the seller (long story). I called my CC company, and they said they would launch an investigation.
Does anybody have experience with this? How does it work? Will I be contacted and asked to provide evidence? I do have evidence that the item is counterfeit, but I don't know how CC companies do the charge back thing.
Please don't ask about going through eBay; they have unequivocally denied the case and closed it.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Treviso1]

It has happened to me twice in the last year or so. Both times, drums that were misrepresented as USA made Ludwig drums, one a Black Beauty, the other was a COB. Both drums were very carefully photographed as to obfuscate the real nature/identity of the drum. So, with the Black Beauty, it was a cheap import black nickel shell with a Ludwig large keystone that was literally glued onto the shell, no grommet! The way it was pictured, you couldn't tell that no grommet existed. It was adorned with Imperial Lugs, but all of the inside screws attaching it to the shell were wrong...it went on and on with this. I recognized this immediately upon opening the box and pulling the drum out and thought to myself...shite...I got had! Anyway, upon contacting the seller, he immediately accused me of scamming him! He said that the drum was not what he sent me. Well, it all turned into a giant pain in the arse, but what I did was recreate all of the pictures that he had listed originally with my camera that showed all of the scratches, dings, dents in exactly the same places, so that he could no longer deny that it was, indeed, the same drum he sent me. I use my AMEX to buy everything I can these days because they will fight to the death for you and they are customer oriented and not merchant oriented. They got my money back.
The second was a COB Ludwig that had the wrong badge on the drum and the Ludwig Rocker black and white sticker inside the shell and it was being touted as a USA made Ludwig. The buyer only wanted a check and not PayPal...Once I realized what he was trying to put over me, he insisted that I keep the drum. I managed to just re-route it back to him and AMEX got my money back for me. So many scammers out there. They must be successful part of the time because it always shocks me when I get stuck in one of these predicaments. I have to say that this never happened to me before this in over 35 years of buying/selling/trading. As a seller, if someone wasn't thrilled with the drum they just bought from me, I would take it back and give them their money back. I would never want an unhappy buyer out there bad mouthing me. It's not worth the bad energy and karma. If they aren't thrilled, take it back. That's the only way to do it. No bad juju surrounding drums, EVER! Drums=fun!
Stewart, document everything, take pictures of everything, show the differences between the real thing and the counterfeit, point it out, circle it, point out the right one vs the wrong one ...make is completely dummy proof. Most of all, just fight, fight, fight. Your credit card company will fight harder than eBay will, these days.

 

[Trommeslager]

Was it states d as non-counterfeited? Maybes low price is tip-off? Hopes it’s not big $$$. Good luck

 

[bellbrass]

It has happened to me twice in the last year or so. Both times, drums that were misrepresented as USA made Ludwig drums, one a Black Beauty, the other was a COB. Both drums were very carefully photographed as to obfuscate the real nature/identity of the drum. So, with the Black Beauty, it was a cheap import black nickel shell with a Ludwig large keystone that was literally glued onto the shell, no grommet! The way it was pictured, you couldn't tell that no grommet existed. It was adorned with Imperial Lugs, but all of the inside screws attaching it to the shell were wrong...it went on and on with this. I recognized this immediately upon opening the box and pulling the drum out and thought to myself...shite...I got had! Anyway, upon contacting the seller, he immediately accused me of scamming him! He said that the drum was not what he sent me. Well, it all turned into a giant pain in the arse, but what I did was recreate all of the pictures that he had listed originally with my camera that showed all of the scratches, dings, dents in exactly the same places, so that he could no longer deny that it was, indeed, the same drum he sent me. I use my AMEX to buy everything I can these days because they will fight to the death for you and they are customer oriented and not merchant oriented. They got my money back.
The second was a COB Ludwig that had the wrong badge on the drum and the Ludwig Rocker black and white sticker inside the shell and it was being touted as a USA made Ludwig. The buyer only wanted a check and not PayPal...Once I realized what he was trying to put over me, he insisted that I keep the drum. I managed to just re-route it back to him and AMEX got my money back for me. So many scammers out there. They must be successful part of the time because it always shocks me when I get stuck in one of these predicaments. I have to say that this never happened to me before this in over 35 years of buying/selling/trading. As a seller, if someone wasn't thrilled with the drum they just bought from me, I would take it back and give them their money back. I would never want an unhappy buyer out there bad mouthing me. It's not worth the bad energy and karma. If they aren't thrilled, take it back. That's the only way to do it. No bad juju surrounding drums, EVER! Drums=fun!
Stewart, document everything, take pictures of everything, show the differences between the real thing and the counterfeit, point it out, circle it, point out the right one vs the wrong one ...make is completely dummy proof. Most of all, just fight, fight, fight. Your credit card company will fight harder than eBay will, these days.

Thanks man. If you don't mind, what did you have to do with your credit card company to get the chargeback? I've already spent hours on the phone with eBay, to no avail; wonder if I'll have to do the same with my CC company.

 

[jptrickster]

A lot of morons on Ebay. One problem is people getting scammed everyday they don’t even know they’re buying fake stuff then they go and flip it thinking it’s the real deal and on and on it goes. If I see any funny stuff I always report it

 

[equipmentdork]

Never on eBay, but with Amanda's Texas Underground back in the 90s. Ordered a drum, took forever, shipped wrong drum that was out of round, phone machine always full. All I did was show a copy of the receipt and proof that I shipped it back to them to the CC company....voila! It was a time-wasting PITA but worth it.



Dan

 

[lamartee]

Its pretty straight forward with the CC companies. You make your claim, they ask for supporting documentation/description of your claim, contact the seller will a notification of a dispute and generally pull the dollars out of the sellers account and put it on "hold" The seller must provide documentation supporting their end of it within a specified time and the CC company makes a determination as to whether they credit you back or find in favor of the seller and release the funds back to them. Most CC companies favor the buyer (Amex especially) but keep in mind that its pretty much black and white. If the advertised description/photos match what you received you will need to provide indisputable proof that it is not was was advertised. I've been in the retail business all my life and this has been my experience the handful of times I've gotten a "charge-back" from a CC company. (For whatever its worth they have always found in my favor and the scammers were the buyers!)
Best of luck with your claim!

 

[Rich K.]

As mentioned, Amex is very good about protecting the customer. Maybe that's one of the reasons some place don't take it. (They also get a larger cut of the sale than visa and Mastercard take.)
When buying online, always usec credit cards and not debit cards. It's much easier to recover funds on a credit card.

 

[bellbrass]

Its pretty straight forward with the CC companies. You make your claim, they ask for supporting documentation/description of your claim, contact the seller will a notification of a dispute and generally pull the dollars out of the sellers account and put it on "hold" The seller must provide documentation supporting their end of it within a specified time and the CC company makes a determination as to whether they credit you back or find in favor of the seller and release the funds back to them. Most CC companies favor the buyer (Amex especially) but keep in mind that its pretty much black and white. If the advertised description/photos match what you received you will need to provide indisputable proof that it is not was was advertised. I've been in the retail business all my life and this has been my experience the handful of times I've gotten a "charge-back" from a CC company. (For whatever its worth they have always found in my favor and the scammers were the buyers!)
Best of luck with your claim!

Thanks. I've filed through my bank and also PayPal buyer protection. I have documentation from the place where I sent the item that documents that it's counterfeit, but that's electronic (pdf file and an email). So, the crook could claim that I manufactured that stuff, I suppose. I've got a picture of the item, with a serial number, before I sent to to the manufacturer, tracking info, and screenshots of the communications I've received stating that the item is fake. I hope that's enough. It's a lot of money we're talking about.

 

[bellbrass]

As mentioned, Amex is very good about protecting the customer. Maybe that's one of the reasons some place don't take it. (They also get a larger cut of the sale than visa and Mastercard take.)
When buying online, always usec credit cards and not debit cards. It's much easier to recover funds on a credit card.

Absolutely! I used Paypal, linked to my CC.

 

[ppfd]

Happened to me a few months ago
I bought a new bag to carry my gear to the gun range, or so I thought. I placed the order from a reputable company I've done business with in the past. Normally you get an automatic invoice sent to your email. I never received one. After a few days I never received shipping info. This outfit has two store fronts, so I logged into both. No record of my order on either page. By now, my account had been charged.
I gave it about a week and sent an email, no response in 48 hours so I left a voice mail. I repeated this twice, so 2 calls, 2 emails in 4 or 5 days.

I went to my credit union and the manager said, write some basic "facts" as to what I have done to this point, so I pretty much typed out the above with the dates. I gave it to her and she filed a charge back. I had the money back in my account in 24 hours. The key was that this money could be removed it the company fought the charge back or sent the item. I'm like just send what I want or if it shows up they can have the money.

So about 3 weeks after the charge back, I get an email, something along the lines of "Hey the bag you ordered is not in stock in the color you want has anyone contacted you?" LOL they still have not realized I did a charge back still! I called my credit union manager and she said just ignore it at this point and send my that email for the file, so I did.

So this is around 2 months ago and I get a response to the charge back, its not from the outfit I bought from but a credit company they must use to process payments. It was something along the lines, did you get you item, the company can still fight this, etc, etc. I need to take it to the CU this week.

So what I learned:
You have a short window to file a claim, like 60-90 days.
The other party can fight it and maybe win
Document everything and provide copies to your bank for the claim / file they start.
And the banks actually monitor how many times you file for charge backs and can deny them on your end as they see you as a scammer.

 

[bellbrass]

Happened to me a few months ago
I bought a new bag to carry my gear to the gun range, or so I thought. I placed the order from a reputable company I've done business with in the past. Normally you get an automatic invoice sent to your email. I never received one. After a few days I never received shipping info. This outfit has two store fronts, so I logged into both. No record of my order on either page. By now, my account had been charged.
I gave it about a week and sent an email, no response in 48 hours so I left a voice mail. I repeated this twice, so 2 calls, 2 emails in 4 or 5 days.

I went to my credit union and the manage said, write some basic "facts" as to what I have done to this point, so I pretty much typed out the above with the dates. I gave it to her and she filed a charge back. I had the money back in my account in 24 hours. The key was that this money could be removed it the company fought the charge back or sent the item. I'm like just send what I want or if it shows up they can have the money.

So about 3 weeks after the charge back, I get an email, something along the lines of "Hey the bag you ordered is not in stock in the color you want has anyone contacted you?" LOL they still have not realized I did a charge back still! I called my credit union manage and she said just ignore it at this point and send my that email for the file, so I did.

So this is around 2 months ago and I get a response to the charge back, its not from the outfit I bought from but a credit company they must use to process payments. It was something along the lines, did you get you item, the company can still fight this, etc, etc. I need to take it to the CU this week.

So what I learned:
You have a short window to file a claim, like 60-90 days.
The other party can fight it and maybe win
Document everything and provide copies to your bank for the claim / file they start.
And they banks actually monitor how many times you file for charge backs and can deny them on your end as they see you as a scammer.

Great info; thanks!

 

[Treviso1]

Stewart,
Sorry, I was out all day, but the solution to the problem has been well outlined already. Just be ready to fight this out over the course of several weeks. It is a PITA, but you will get resolution.

 

[bellbrass]

Stewart,
Sorry, I was out all day, but the solution to the problem has been well outlined already. Just be ready to fight this out over the course of several weeks. It is a PITA, but you will get resolution.

Thanks man. Hope so!