Overheads vs Underheads with K Zildjians?

[Philip]

Underhead/Overhead help!​

​

So, I've been wanting to get rid of my overheads in my bands studio (and when we play concerts), but I cannot figure out how. I recently noticed that Arctic Monkeys drummer Matt Helders uses them.
IF anyone could tell me where to purchase them, I'd would appreciate it sooo much!

As you can see on the picture he uses something that could look like "underheads"
My drumstyle is very similiar to his, using the ride as a crash. I recently purchased Dark K's
20" K Crash Ride Zildjian
and a 18" K Medium thin Crash Zildjian.

I would love inputs, on underheads pros/cons, and if he uses clips with mics, if you could help me out which ones. you get the idea...

Anywho, thanks in advance guys!

Regards,
Philip.

 

[andrewro]

Those just look like AKG C414s, placed underneath and dialed in for better capture of the cymbals in a live situation. Regardless of whether you can make it work for your needs, it is a great mic to own. Others with more experience may weigh in on the specific application and technique.

 

[bamamule77]

I've noticed a lot of people doing this in their live shows the past 2 or 3 years.

 

[dimag333]

works for large concerts but not for recording usually, those are 414s as mentioned. Lars has been doing it forever I think he uses AT pics.

 

[dcrigger]

Studio. Concerts. Two very different things.

What you are suggesting really wouldn't be considered overheads - but rather close micing each cymbal.

In a studio context, putting some air between the instrument and the mic is typically considered a good thing - makes more a bigger sound. Also overhead mics are important to a great studio drum sound for more than just capturing the cymbals. Oftentimes a record's snare sound can 50% or more (sometimes a lot more) derived from the overheads.

Of course, if on a record, you were to ever play the cymbal on the bell or with the tip - micing underneath is always a huge compromise. Similarly overheads clamped to cymbal stands will have to be EQ'd significantly to get the weird low end clanking sound out.

But mainly the most negative parts comes from micing too closely - in an environment, the studio - that makes no demand for one to do so.

Now, of course, live is a very different beast - in pretty much one big way. Lack of isolation. Between monitors, amps and the sound of the house system, all of the advantages of keeping the mics at a reasonable distance are destroy by the onslaught of unwanted leakage. Along with the need for enough gain before feedback. In a loud stage environment, overheads sitting 4-5 ft over the snare can become as much of a liability as an asset. In extremely loud stages environments, the closer the better becomes the order of the day. And the compromised sound quality that mics pick-up close-in like that is far more easily fixed than a signal that is 30-50% leakage.

So for bands playing loudly with even louder PA's cranking - that sort of tight, close-in micing can be the best solution.

Completely the opposite for in the studio - where it really never is.

There's no need for your set-ups to match. If you're using 414's like those pictured - mount them that way in concert - and then put them on stands in a nice stereo configuration over the kit in the studio. Not unlike how everyone else does. Why? Because it really works.

David

 

[Zuntio]

Here's a great thread about Greg Wells' drum recording process over at Gearslutz, and the underheads vs. overheads is discussed in detail: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/790127-greg-wells-recording-drums.html

 

[Geostorm98]

Regarding the mic holders (clips) pictured, Matt is using LP Claws mounted to his cymbal stands.

 

[MatrixClaw]

Would really not recommend doing this. I've tried it a few times - hated it.

It's alright if you're doing it live and just want to hear the cymbals super clearly, but it sounds terrible on a record IMO.

I dunno how this is really that great of a compromise, either way. It takes two minutes to setup two boom stands at either side of the set, and you don't have to worry about accidentally hitting any of them or overloading the mic preamps. If you DO end up doing this, I'd suggest something with a warmer sound - like a ribbon - otherwise your cymbals are going to come out really harsh.

 

[Formula428]

I use both over and under heads. Blend to taste, but majority is from above, especially adding the snare.

 

[PhilRanger]

Underhead/Overhead help!
​

So, I've been wanting to get rid of my overheads in my bands studio (and when we play concerts), but I cannot figure out how. I recently noticed that Arctic Monkeys drummer Matt Helders uses them.
IF anyone could tell me where to purchase them, I'd would appreciate it sooo much!

As you can see on the picture he uses something that could look like "underheads"
My drumstyle is very similiar to his, using the ride as a crash. I recently purchased Dark K's
20" K Crash Ride Zildjian
and a 18" K Medium thin Crash Zildjian.

I would love inputs, on underheads pros/cons, and if he uses clips with mics, if you could help me out which ones. you get the idea...

Anywho, thanks in advance guys!

Regards,
Philip.

I had a lot of success with using omis as tom mics but 25% fat from the toms and 75% far from the cymbals. Works great on 2 toms and 2 floors. Dial in more high and you get more cymbals, dial in more lows and you get more toms. A 3-6 dB expander on highs or lows can help if mix ain’t right (cymbal basher or tom feather hitter). Those are my main mics, add in some ardioid snare top, undersnare (omni sizzle and kick attack mix), a kick in the port, and some room mikes if needed. The stereo underhead becomes the main pair, the rest are for balance. I often end up using only them , the undersnare and kick.

 

[hsosdrum]

A while ago (probably more like 20 years ago, now that I think about it) Zildjian marketed the ZMC-10 — a system for mic-ing each cymbal from underneath. It included a pre-amp unit an a half-dozen mics (pickups) made by Barcus-Berry. The pickups were designed to clip to the cymbal stand below the cymbal's bell. It was not on the market for very long.

 

[RobbiefromAtlanta]

Yep Neil Peart used them their Hold Your Fire tour and on the video A Show of Hands from same tour. Cool idea but didn’t sound great.

 

[Seb77]

As dcrigger mentions, the best snare sound might be coming from OH mics, I particularly like an x/y pair for getting a full sound from all drums in the OHs. It was just too much room the last time I recorded something, I was going for a real dry sound overall, so I tried the another way. I put my OHs closer to each cymbals (ride resp. crash/hh). I could imagine the orientation of all mics in the same direction (downward) might help with phase issues. I put the ride mic on top of the cymbal, but on the side opposite to where I hit the cymbal, to get less wood click from the stick. You need to mic everything else, and get a good sound from the close-mics if you go this route.

 

[dcrigger]

And if you're not using OH's in a x/y pattern - but a spaced pair (as I usually do) - then be sure and make sure the snare drum is the same distance from each of those overheads. This will put the snare sound picked up by the OH's dead center in that stereo image. Which is most likely right where you want it in order to blend it with the close snare mics. I use a tape measurer or just a spare mic cable to measure mine. Center of snare batter to each mic capsule - same distance - even if it means fudging on other placement symmetry.

 

[flurbs]

I had a lot of success with using omis as tom mics but 25% fat from the toms and 75% far from the cymbals. Works great on 2 toms and 2 floors. Dial in more high and you get more cymbals, dial in more lows and you get more toms. A 3-6 dB expander on highs or lows can help if mix ain’t right (cymbal basher or tom feather hitter). Those are my main mics, add in some ardioid snare top, undersnare (omni sizzle and kick attack mix), a kick in the port, and some room mikes if needed. The stereo underhead becomes the main pair, the rest are for balance. I often end up using only them , the undersnare and kick.

You got any pics of placement? And what exact mics?

 

[PhilRanger]

You got any pics of placement? And what exact mics?

Sorry, no pics. Just get them out of the drummer's sticks way, equal distance from toms if it's miking 2 toms instead of 1. Small or large condensers work fine. Expect to boost low-end to compensate for the loss of proximity effect on the toms.