paiste 2002 cymbals throughout the years

[bon viesta]

have they changed all that much? i’ve heard people say that the lathing has been identical since the 70s but when i see how they look in various drum demos/cymbal demos they look like something from an alien spaceship! AKA, modern. but like, not in an ugly way just in a... “was this really like they were in the 70s?” way. also has the weight changed very much? usually all cymbal lines thicken over several decades of production, but i’m very very uneducated when it comes to cymbals like paistes so i would appreciate some outside knowledge.

 

[JDA]

start with an old book a cymbal overview here->

the cymbal book - Google Search

 

[bon viesta]

no ok ok yes verylittle agree it'll cost ya

start with an old book a cymbal overview here->

the cymbal book - Google Search

oh you want me to purchase a book? do you hold shares or something?!?! no i’m just kidding. i may actually be able to use something to get this book for “free” if my school ebook library has this one. i know it had the drum book with all of those pictures of ringos beaten up kits and it was actually very informative

 

[bon viesta]

update: it did have it!!! i’ll be reading it now, thanks

 

[Mcjnic]

Pinksterboer's book doesn't speak to the specific lathing and hammering and such of these cymbals as it relates through the years.

 

[stuart s]

Need to ask Terry Keating, aka Bonzoleum, he would know. I only have the red labels.

 

[bon viesta]

Need to ask Terry Keating, aka Bonzoleum, he would know. I only have the red labels.

he’s the guy i did ask! he said the lathing was identical, but i wanted to get some of the paiste gurus on this forum’s opinion as well.

 

[JDA]

oh you want me to purchase a book? do you hold shares or something?!?! no i’m just kidding. i may actually be able to use something to get this book for “free” if my school ebook library has this one. i know it had the drum book with all of those pictures of ringos beaten up kits and it was actually very informative

yes no ok Yes errr

 

[mgdrummer]

I've had plenty of current 2002's and have owned a handful of black labels. To me, the red label stuff seems like it would sound & feel just like the black label stuff if they had the same amount of dirt/dust/play time as their black label counterparts have gone through over the decades.

The 2002's never went through anything like say, the Zildjian A series, which dramatically changed in weight over time.

 

[Dumpy]

I have heard that 90s onwards red labels got to be slightly heavier, but not dramatically heavier. Paiste are nothing if not consistent.

 

[Tom Cat]

Ive bought and documented quite a few 2oo2 black label and red, all of the black label 2oo2s I weighed were definitely lighter to their red label counterparts.
Ive gotten into a few spirted debates about it but the scales don't lie.
Ive read a lot of stories thru the years that 70s era paistes easily cracked etc etc, who really knows but its great propaganda for one cymbal maker to push that against their competition true or not, and no cymbal maker wants that to be common talk about their wares. so when paiste went to the red labels 2oo2s it may have been reason? or part of the reason the red 2oo2s got thicker, it was put to me Erik from paiste said the 2oo2 weights never changed with the red logo change, but again business is business and it's not the thing a manufacturer would say and give more ammo to the competition.
I've had documented over 30 black label 2oo2s to Red 2oo2s and the red label averaged 10% heavier
OR
the black label 2oo2 were 10% lighter,

 

[cymbal.wiki]

Ive bought and documented quite a few 2oo2 black label and red, all of the black label 2oo2s I weighed were definitely lighter to their red label counterparts.
Ive gotten into a few spirted debates about it but the scales don't lie.
Ive read a lot of stories thru the years that 70s era paistes easily cracked etc etc, who really knows but its great propaganda for one cymbal maker to push that against their competition true or not, and no cymbal maker wants that to be common talk about their wares. so when paiste went to the red labels 2oo2s it may have been reason? or part of the reason the red 2oo2s got thicker, it was put to me Erik from paiste said the 2oo2 weights never changed with the red logo change, but again business is business and it's not the thing a manufacturer would say and give more ammo to the competition.
I've had documented over 30 black label 2oo2s to Red 2oo2s and the red label averaged 10% heavier
OR
the black label 2oo2 were 10% lighter,

I've got thousands of weights for Paiste 602s, Sound Creations, and Trads. Many fewer for the B8 and other B15 series because I specialized in just a few lines. All of this is part of a massive project to document Paiste cymbals as well as all the other manufacturers. I'm heading towards this level of detail although this entry is itself still preliminary

Paiste Formula 602 18" Medium Ride - Cymbal

www.cymbal.wiki

Part of the goal is to understand not just weight distributions and how they changed over time, but also how well weight can predict model when all the ink is gone. Of course there are other attributes (like lathing) which can also help identify models and influence the sound. All part of ongoing investigations.

Given the variation in weights for a particular model at a particular time (eg Red Label 2002 Ride vs Black Label 2002 Ride) I'd suggest you should have a goal of around 25 of each. And that's 25 of each specific diameter and model and production era. So if you want to separate out the later Red Labels that's at least 25 more.

Scales don't lie. But without an adequate sample you may fall into the over interpretation of a small non representative sample which capitalizes on chance. That's where proper use of statistics comes in.

"Myths often grow out of mistaken first impressions" -- E J Dionne Jr (2020)

If you are willing to pass your raw data to me, I can add it to the wiki database.

 

[Talktotommy]

Ive bought and documented quite a few 2oo2 black label and red, all of the black label 2oo2s I weighed were definitely lighter to their red label counterparts.
Ive gotten into a few spirted debates about it but the scales don't lie.
Ive read a lot of stories thru the years that 70s era paistes easily cracked etc etc, who really knows but its great propaganda for one cymbal maker to push that against their competition true or not, and no cymbal maker wants that to be common talk about their wares. so when paiste went to the red labels 2oo2s it may have been reason? or part of the reason the red 2oo2s got thicker, it was put to me Erik from paiste said the 2oo2 weights never changed with the red logo change, but again business is business and it's not the thing a manufacturer would say and give more ammo to the competition.
I've had documented over 30 black label 2oo2s to Red 2oo2s and the red label averaged 10% heavier
OR
the black label 2oo2 were 10% lighter,

Absolutely correct on all points.
I have over 35 black and red label 2002’s and almost all of the black label cymbals are as stated lighter to some degree.
Early 80’s red label are some of the heaviest. Newer ones are lighter but still usually slightly heavier than any of the black counter parts.

 

[cymbal.wiki]

Absolutely correct on all points.
I have over 35 black and red label 2002’s and almost all of the black label cymbals are as stated lighter to some degree.
Early 80’s red label are some of the heaviest. Newer ones are lighter but still usually slightly heavier than any of the black counter parts.

I presume your 35 refers to your total collection of 2002s. If so I presume you are speaking of a variety of diameters and models? Comparisons need to be made within specific model and diameter (with the model ink intact) for the two time periods. Based on my research on weight variation I suggest about 25 of each. So to recap by example that's 25 20" Red Label 2002 Mediums and 25 20" Black Label Mediums. That is just for a comparison of a single diameter and model. I'd love to incorporate your data into the wiki and include it in an analysis of weights in different periods.

 

[Talktotommy]

Yes that is total collection.
I have a notebook with all serial numbers , models and sizes listed.
All ink stamps are visible. I’ll have to dig it out and can post comparisons. There were only a couple of instances where a same model red was what I would call within a reasonable tolerance.
A few of my black ones are almost mint and even on those the hammering also is lighter.

 

[DrumR69]

Cymbal,
I don't know if you have these but if not,
Black Label - HiHats - rock - top 1151g- Bottom 1240g
Red Label - 17" crash - 1260g

Wayne