Paiste 404 20" Ride

Black Label

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Hi there - I recently scored a Paiste 404 20" ride and should receive it within a day or so. I know that it was an entry level cymbal and the reviews are generally quite positive. Has anyone here actually played one or maybe own one - your thoughts and impressions of the cymbal would be greatly appreciated.

Regards and have a great day.

Erik
 

dtk

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Just wanted to say congrads...I was watching one on Ebay. I'm not a Paiste Fan but the 404/505s have peaked my curiousity (I have a 404 crash I like and once played some 505s as part of a back line and was impressed.

dtk
 

Johnny D

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Hi there - I recently scored a Paiste 404 20" ride and should receive it within a day or so. I know that it was an entry level cymbal and the reviews are generally quite positive. Has anyone here actually played one or maybe own one - your thoughts and impressions of the cymbal would be greatly appreciated.

Regards and have a great day.

Erik
Hi Erik, I have one. It’s a nice cymbal, especially for an entry level cymbal, but once I got a hold of an original white label 20” Giant Beat, the 404 lacked the character and complexity I was looking for. In fact, I may sell mine, along with a 20” 404 Medium I have.

I’m sure it will serve you well. Congrats and good luck.
 

michiganice91

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404's are not entry level....at least they shouldn't be considered as such. They are made from exactly the same blanks and in the same style as 505's, giant beats, and 2OOO's. 404's are among the thinnest and lightest B8 semi/ professional cymbals Paiste has ever produced. They are really underrated cymbals too. If you like 404s and 505s there's no denying you will like original giant beats and 2OOO's also.
 

tris66

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I have one. Very light. Excellent crash/ crash ride. Overall dirty and unrefined yet having some of the more complex overtones that other inexpensive B8 lacks. Musical, but not in a polished way.
 

shilohjim

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I have one and use it as my main ride, to the exclusion of more expensive models I own. The 404's were made by Paiste's entry level cymbalsmiths, so vary quite a bit in comparision to the consistent quality of the upper lines. But I have a great one that can do anything-crash, ride, crashride, beautiful bell sound-just an all around great sound. I bought another one that doesn't sound nearly as good. I also have an awesome set of 404 sound edge hats that eat the lunch of all my other sets.
 

nickrobotron

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I have had a couple 505/404's. They sound good. A lot of the older B8 alloy didn't have the thinner weights that we all desire. These seem to be the exception. The standard Ride was a very usable weight. Another budget line to consider is the Innovations. The 18" Thin Crash is freaking amazing.
 

drummerjohn333

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The 20 inch 404 Ride is potentially the absolute best value in the used market - if you get a good one (and most of them are). I also have a 20 inch 505 medium, and, as you can see and hear on Bonzoleum's video featuring the 404s/505s, they are almost the same cymbal. One is more controlled and focused than the other.
 

Black Label

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Hi there guys - thank you very much for your input. I am very excited to receive this cymbal - it should arrive tomorrow. I am curious how it would compare to my 20" 2002 black label ride and 20" black label medium. The medium weights in just under 2000g and the ride at around 2200g - I assume that this 404 would sit somewhere in the middle of the two :)

BTW: This is a brown label cymbal - were all 404's brown labels?

I am still searching locally for a 505 as well - the closest I have is an 18" Stambul 65 which I believe developed into the 505 series later.

I will post a sound clip when I receive it.

Regards
Erik
 

Johnny D

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Hi there guys - thank you very much for your input. I am very excited to receive this cymbal - it should arrive tomorrow. I am curious how it would compare to my 20" 2002 black label ride and 20" black label medium. The medium weights in just under 2000g and the ride at around 2200g - I assume that this 404 would sit somewhere in the middle of the two :)

BTW: This is a brown label cymbal - were all 404's brown labels?

I am still searching locally for a 505 as well - the closest I have is an 18" Stambul 65 which I believe developed into the 505 series later.

I will post a sound clip when I receive it.

Regards
Erik
As I said in a previous post, I have a 20” 404 Ride and also own a 20” black label (1974) 2002 Medium and several original original white label 20” Giant Beats. I would say compared to your 2002s, it will sound “tinnier” and less complex. On its own it sounds good - but compared to the 2002s I feel it lacks “character.” That’s certainly the case when compared to an original white label Giant Beat. Those cymbals are spectacular - they have a warm almost dark quality, with the Paiste shimmer. Enjoy your 404 Ride!
 
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Black Label

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As I said in a previous post, I have a 20” 404 Ride and also own a 20” black label (1974) 2002 Medium and several original original white label 20” Giant Beats. I would say compared to your 2002s, it will sound “tinnier” and less complex. On its own it sounds good - but compared to the 2002s I feel it lacks “character.” That’s certainly the case when compared to an original white label Giant Beat. Those cymbals are spectacular - they have a warm almost dark quality, with the Paiste shimmer. Enjoy your 404 Ride!
Hi there Johnny D - thank you so much for your post. This may be slightly off the post (but its my post anyway :)) - if you had to compare the original white label GB to the re-issues, would you say that they were slightly beefier cymbals back then? I have an 18" re-issue GB crash which I love but when I play it along with my Stambul 65 18" (which is beefier than the GB), I find the Stambul to be slightly fuller with a longer sparkling sustain than the re-issue GB. The Stambul 65 reminds me of the old Bonham recordings more so than the re-issue GB. So, knowing that JB played white label GB's in the 60's and not Stambul 65's, it made me wonder whether the GB's were maybe a bit more beefy those days than today. I would love to hear your input on this.

Thanks and have a good one.
Cheers
Erik
 

ThomFloor

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Bonozoleum youtubes compare old Giant Beats and re-makes. They do differ. Its true the older Giant Beats were slightly heavier than the re-makes. Re-makes are still very nice.

404's are great little secrets. They come up for cheap on used sites and have a great '2002' sound but typically thinner, and yes Id agree a little tinnier, more trashy and less complex. Still awesome cymbals for the price.

Legend has it the first Pearl Jam album ('Ten') was recorded with old cracked 404 hi hats.
 

Johnny D

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Hi there Johnny D - thank you so much for your post. This may be slightly off the post (but its my post anyway :)) - if you had to compare the original white label GB to the re-issues, would you say that they were slightly beefier cymbals back then? I have an 18" re-issue GB crash which I love but when I play it along with my Stambul 65 18" (which is beefier than the GB), I find the Stambul to be slightly fuller with a longer sparkling sustain than the re-issue GB. The Stambul 65 reminds me of the old Bonham recordings more so than the re-issue GB. So, knowing that JB played white label GB's in the 60's and not Stambul 65's, it made me wonder whether the GB's were maybe a bit more beefy those days than today. I would love to hear your input on this.

Thanks and have a good one.
Cheers
Erik
Hi Erik - you're welcome. That's a great question and here's my take: After I bought my first white label Giant Beat in 2015 (my favorite of the five 20" white label GBs I ended up acquiring) I brought it to my friend Nate Morrison's drum shop in Beverly, Massachusetts to compare it to a reissue 20" Giant Beat with the intention of buying it as a back-up, assuming I'd never find another white label Giant Beat (I can be obsessive when I find something I like ;) ). When we compared my 20" white label Giant Beat to the reissue they sounded similar, like they were from the same family, but there was a noticeable difference in sound, with my white label GB winning out. I didn't end up buying the reissue. I don't know that I'd characterize it as being beefier because my vintage white label GB is about 1980 grams, but more like warmer and more complex sounding. I agree it's fuller sounding, so I can see why you say it's beefier. I emailed Erik Paiste because I heard he might have a few of the original white label GBs at the factory, to see if I could buy one, but he said any of their original models have to remain in their archives, which I certainly understand. He said there's no difference between the old white labels and reissues and attributed the sound difference to the metal aging, etc. While I know something about cymbals and metal aging, I still think the sound difference has more to do with some subtle differences in how they make them now.

I acquired another four more 20" white label GBs and they're all very close in weight and sound and are all great cymbals. In the last year or so I started seeking out vintage 50s/60s 20" A Zildjian's, so I decided to sell two of my white label GB's through Maxwell's Drum Shop in NYC. They sold one but still have one in the NYC store, which I saw yesterday when I was there. I still have three but may end up letting one more go. Somehow I've accumulated a lot of cymbals over the past few years and I need to start thinning the herd :)

Sorry for the long-winded answer and I hope I've answered your question. If I end up selling my 20" 404s (I have a Ride and Medium), I'll list them here. Enjoy yours and let us know how you like it.

Cheers,
John
 

KevinD

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Re: the 404s. I have an 18" medium crash. Kind of a low frequency crash I use it on my practice kit. Have not gigged with it in years.

Tommy Wells used to have a set and mentioned how the 404 line, particularly the 15" hi hats (rare) were kind of a hidden secret in Nashville. He said they were used on a lot of records because their lower pitch sat in the mixes really well (for the sound they were going for at that time).
 

Black Label

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I just received the cymbal and all I can say is wow .... definitely not what I expected. Light, responsive, slightly trashy - I love it. I have not weighed it yet but I’m pretty sure it’s under 2000g.

I note that it has no serial number - is that because it was a budget model? It just has Paiste 404 engraved below the bell.

Can’t wait to give it a whack later on.
 

Black Label

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Hi Erik - you're welcome. That's a great question and here's my take: After I bought my first white label Giant Beat in 2015 (my favorite of the five 20" white label GBs I ended up acquiring) I brought it to my friend Nate Morrison's drum shop in Beverly, Massachusetts to compare it to a reissue 20" Giant Beat with the intention of buying it as a back-up, assuming I'd never find another white label Giant Beat (I can be obsessive when I find something I like ;) ). When we compared my 20" white label Giant Beat to the reissue they sounded similar, like they were from the same family, but there was a noticeable difference in sound, with my white label GB winning out. I didn't end up buying the reissue. I don't know that I'd characterize it as being beefier because my vintage white label GB is about 1980 grams, but more like warmer and more complex sounding. I agree it's fuller sounding, so I can see why you say it's beefier. I emailed Erik Paiste because I heard he might have a few of the original white label GBs at the factory, to see if I could buy one, but he said any of their original models have to remain in their archives, which I certainly understand. He said there's no difference between the old white labels and reissues and attributed the sound difference to the metal aging, etc. While I know something about cymbals and metal aging, I still think the sound difference has more to do with some subtle differences in how they make them now.

I acquired another four more 20" white label GBs and they're all very close in weight and sound and are all great cymbals. In the last year or so I started seeking out vintage 50s/60s 20" A Zildjian's, so I decided to sell two of my white label GB's through Maxwell's Drum Shop in NYC. They sold one but still have one in the NYC store, which I saw yesterday when I was there. I still have three but may end up letting one more go. Somehow I've accumulated a lot of cymbals over the past few years and I need to start thinning the herd :)

Sorry for the long-winded answer and I hope I've answered your question. If I end up selling my 20" 404s (I have a Ride and Medium), I'll list them here. Enjoy yours and let us know how you like it.

Cheers,
John
Hi Johnny - thanks so much for your detailed response. I hope to one day come accross a white label here in South Africa although chances are that I’ll have to import. I need to get one of those added to my collection
 

tillerva

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I'll have to weigh mine but I feel like I'm in the minority in that mine feels a little heavier than I'd like (20" ride). Not a very good ride for my purposes but is a very good heavy rock crash.
I'm trying to use it in a metal band, with a crash of Doom as a China type sound, but need another crash. Actually tried a couple of As with it and it wasn't a bad pairing .
 

daveplaydrum

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I’ve never played the 404 but I have a 20” 505 heavy ride that sounds real nice. Very bright. It’s actually a little too bright for me so I’m trying to sell it but that’s just personal taste. Otherwise it’s a perfectly good cymbal and they’re cheap too!

Though I saw a 22” 505 heavy ride recently sell for something like $250 on eBay. Maybe I’m not totally understanding how to value these but whoever bought that must have really wanted it.
 


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