Paiste 602

cymbal.wiki

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Ouch.

Screwed too hard on the stand? 602 are sensitive to that when played hard.
Ask me how I know. Luckily it were only small cracks on a HiHat which could be fixed by laser beam welding.

@ Cymbal-wiki
Are you the one responsible for the website? Great resource, thank you very much, learned a lot.
Yes I own and operate the cymbal.wiki site. I've had quite a bit of help to get the Paiste-Only Wiki resurrected (thank you guys), and we are still working on bringing back lots of information which was lost. We are also adding lots of new stuff like my Paiste price research which was never allowed in the old P-O Wiki. Plus there is the ongoing historical research which still needs to be written up:


Unfortunately there is a lot of dross already out there (including in that thread). People can repeat internet rumors as fact much faster than we can do proper research and write it up. We are slowly making progress.
 

NobleCooleyNut

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I think the 02 in 602 had some relation to the 02 in 2oo2
some internal development number. Where the 6 was a development digit. 20 a later development digit.


Beyond that 602 are B20.
The only B20 Paiste until the Masters much later.
But the 602 B20 was made by an industrial firm. And was used in the Sound Creation line.
You have it all wrong Joe - they were named 602s because they were 602 times better than the Istanbul K Zildjians
 

cymbal.wiki

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Did somebody say microscope?

Paiste 602 alloy from the 1970s

800px-Alloy-Fo602.png


Lab notes: nice clean 602 B20 alloy with a little bit (around the 0.11% to 0.15% level) of Phosphorus

Old K alloy from the 1930s

799px-Alloy-k-con-turkey.png


Lab notes: microstructure of 1930s K Zildjian alloy from Turkey. B22 with a higher beta and lower alpha phase content. Nice clean microstrucure. Sample contains no silver, but does have Sulfur which might be from fire refined raw copper. The Iron is from the casting mold. Generally B22 with remarkably low contamination.

 
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Tom Cat

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i scored a set of 15" 602 SE hats 15yrs ago, one of the best hats i ever had, paid $350 plus ship'g from the netherlands they sold on ebay for over $1100.
if you want to listen to a cymbal your interested in listen to it out front in the mix for perspective.
paistes and 602s in particular seem to stand out in their own way. listened to a little 3piece band with just amps for the bass and guitar.
no PA system with cymbals ran thru it EQ'd you heard the cymbals as they really are in the mix so to say.
this is way i like to really hear what a cymbal sounds like.
the drummer had a 602 18'' flat ride that was superb, i sat in for a few and saw it had a nice sized 2'' crack.
listening to it playing had none of the effect than sitting out front listening to it in the mix, paistes are very musical cymbals.

one nite heading home i dropped into a bar and listened to the last few sets of a band.
the drummer had about 4 crashes but 1 of them stood out like you wouldn't believe, and in the best way,
i was a zildjian player at the time, played Zs since i started playing. the other crashes seemed dead next to this mystery cymbal, break time i nailed the drummer down to see what it was.
it was a paiste 2oo2 16" crash, the drummer loved it and planned to get more Paistes.
i always played Z's living in panama city fl you had 2 shops,all they sold were Zildjians, and on shop always had 1 2oo2 20" ride.
it was basically a price thing,
growing up and the cymbals sounds i listened to on records growing up and getting hold of a paiste artist book, that orange one finding out eventually what they play it was mostly Paistes ian paice, bonham, moon, carl palmer.

bottom line listen to your ears
 

Tarkus

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...

Paiste 602 alloy from the 1970s

View attachment 487516

....

Now, it gets really interesting. You dig into the inner of cymbals quite professionally, even scientifically. Very impressive. I remember all the 'secrets' and 'magic' which was whispered by cymbal smiths around the 'holy grail' of their cymbal material. This issue seems solved.

@tomcatmixd
1100$ - wow. I don't follow the HiHat market, but that sound exeptionell high. Bought mine - as you - long ago on second hand marked for little money. They have 'scars' now and wouln't sell that high, but I'll keep them anyway.
 

fusseltier

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I have a 602 17 inch thin crash, it's a great cymbal, I would have more but I mainly use 2002s. Most are over 30-35 years old.
I've been playing over 45 years.

Cymbals
Paiste 2002
14" sound edge hihats (x2 pair)
8", 10", 12" splash
13", 14", 15", 17" crash ,
19" power crash
20", 22" rides
Signature
16" Full Crash
602 series
16" thin crash
Twenty Series
17" thin crash
PstX
14" Swiss thin crash
Alpha
8" thin splash
Zildjian
10" splash (35 years old)

17 Paiste 1 Zildjian = 18 cymbals
 

Dr. Detroit

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Is this line of cymbals worth the high prices being charged and are they superior to the signatures or 2002s?
I understand that better is subjective. $620 is a chunk of change to spend on a 24" ride.
I found one on reverb for 380...they are out there just be patient..
 

Carlos McSnurf

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I have 602’s and 2002’s. 602 are very musical and full sounding in lower volume situations. When recorded, sitting very well in the mix. 18” thin crash is one of the best sounding crashes ever, 20” medium ride (if you put a piece of tape) is a “Riders On The Storm” sound. It took me some time to learn how to extract the most of the “juice” from them.
For live situations I prefer 2002’s as they are more selective and “silvery” through amplifiers.
Paiste cymbals are famous for consistency and their samples on page are very accurate
 

JohnnyVibesAZ

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I remember when Ludwig started distributing the 602s in the 60s, and even got some of its endorsers to switch over from Zildjian. I heard Joe Morello and Dino Danelli play them, and I thought they sounded like toy cymbals. I wondered if they were really happy for making the switch, but I guess money talks. When the 2002s came out, I thought, "Well, that's more like it!" I understand that the reissues of the 602s are better sounding, but I've never heard them.
 
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kzac

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Is this line of cymbals worth the high prices being charged and are they superior to the signatures or 2002s?
I understand that better is subjective. $620 is a chunk of change to spend on a 24" ride.
Zildjian will tell you, no two cymbals are the same, each one is different. That said, marketing ranges of cymbals seem to have similar sounds. However (coma) the sound of a percussionist's cymbals is directly related to the type of music your band members perform....
If they are strictly hard rockin, you will need cymbals that cut through the extremely loud mix ... something high pitched with short sustain, usually smaller, thin crash or crash ride cymbals.
Other music types demand different cymbals, and there in lies the dilemma, especially if a percussionist tends to cross venues

My personal approach is to keep a heavy, large >20in crash, a fast high pitched crash (16in Paiste Prototype), a small china (quick trashy - Mine is a Wuhan) an array of splash cymbals ranging from 12 to to 6 inches in size, and finally a large ride cymbal. This way I can cross several music venues, without having to select cymbals for a specific venue.
The band I play with will cross venues from what we call "Big Block Rock", Blues, Country, with some Latin and Gospel mixed in... The cymbal array I have, serves these venues well. However, your needs might be different.

The answer to any cymbal question is .... it depends upon what sound the percussionist is attempting to produce, regardless of the manufacturer, its marketed cymbal line, or its pricing.
Focus on the sound not the product marketing. I acquired a Wuhan cymbal pack a few years back which included a 12in China and an 8 in splash (for $20).... both fit into my overall package extremely well......... Does anyone ever come up to me after a concert and say..... Man your cymbals sound terrible ... especially those Wuhan's.... Nope!.... when they talk to me, they say just the opposite... Your cymbals sound awesome ...... which means is I have accomplished my task of selecting and retaining the correct cymbals for the Venues we musically represent..... I have received that comment many times during my music carrier...
That said.... I have cucked many a cymbal in the past following marketing logic.. those were very expensive lessons.... Cymbals aren't cheap... Learn from an old codger, don't just buy cymbals following marketing hype, or because that is the cymbal (XXX fill in the blank) drummer uses....... unless of course you have lots of money to burn...

See the array of cymbals I used in this rock/blues/country kit, one can see the splashes I was talking about.
This kit is setup using a Recording Custom bass, YD 7000 toms, Stage Custom 8" tom, and a Concert snare. Note that I use YD 7000 hoops on the Recording Custom bass. These are very stout hoops that don't bend or move around like their wooden counterparts...
The cymbals are 20in ride, 20in heavy crash, 16in light crash, 12" China, a 10in and two 8in splash cymbals, and a set of new beat hihats (not my favorite).
I can easily change this configuration to match the venue I will be playing in... Mixing other drums and cymbals into a kit.

YD7000-9000 3Qtr.jpg
YD7000-9000 3Qtr.jpg
 
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Slingwig26

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I sold my 2002s and Dark Energies and bought 602s as soon as they were reintroduced and have never regretted the decision . I had the first set of 602 cymbals in Canada when they were reissued . I have 602 classics and Modern Essentials in my main setup .
Kept my 2002's and signatures AND bought more than a few 602's and ALSO never regretted the decision. They pair well with my Giant Beats.
 

toddlittle827

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I meant some relation on paper not in the cymbal itself. Some internal development number on paper. Maybe.
like the 505, 302, 1000 etc.
JDA,

I have been told that the 602 name comes from it being their "60"th formulation of B20 alloy - the one they decided to put into production with the Super Formula 602 (sometimes metal stamped as Paiste "Super" in cursive script - not to be confused with the later budget SUPER, which did not have the Paiste name on it) in 1957.

The third digit "2" was code for the B20 alloy, so 60 and 2 = 602.

As someone pointed out above there is no relationship between the 602 and 2002 names. 2002 was chosen to sound futuristic, thankfully, as Paiste has an annoying habit of recycling names for different lines (Stambul - Stambul 65 / 80s era Marching 900s - new active 900s / 1000 Marching - green label 1000 etc.). In retrospect, I'm surprised they didn't call the 2002s Giant Beat '71. The other Paiste "numbered" series that came out in 1978 (505, 404, 101) seem to simply descend downwards in quality from 2002/602 and are named accordingly. Why 101 instead of 303 I can't say... maybe because they were nickel-silver
 
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cymbal.wiki

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I found one on reverb for 380...they are out there just be patient..
I still haven't got an answer to my question as to whether this $620 is a new or used price. I've got 68 completed sales of 24" fo602 but am waiting on the further info I asked for below so I know which ones to focus on. Your $380 is in need of more info (see below) to give it context. There seems little point in continuing to discuss prices until we get an answer from @Pickinator so I'll ask again as I did in my previous post:

Can you please clarify whether this price of $620 is for

Can you give a specific link to the cymbal if that is where the $620 comes from? If not, where does the $620 come from? It is close enough to the (MAP) new price to look like a good deal if new. Some sellers seem to have a way to get around the MAP by claiming open box, shop demo, etc.

Based on some answers in this thread I think that other people aren't clear whether you are talking about a new or used cymbal. I know I'm not clear.

For both reissue era used cymbals and vintage cymbals price is dependent on a number of factors like: structural condition, cosmetic condition (eg ink still present), and weight class (everything from Paper Thin through Medium and Medium Ride to Heavy). Having collected and analyzed data in this area since 2006 I can provide useful context but only if you provide a bit more information to narrow the question down. Another factor in what is a "reasonable price" is what country you are in. Prices new and used are different in different countries.
 
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Pickinator

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Sorry to keep you hanging. The $620 was on eBay as a new open box. Since last weekend I have found them all over the map on conditions and prices.

That said, I went to the Paiste website and listened to their recorded sound file examples and (if those files are to be trusted), I have arrived at what sounds best to my ears:
Paiste:
2002- 20” ride
2002- 22” ride
2002- 24” ride
2002- 15” sound edge hi hats
2002- 14” heavy hi hats
Signature fast crash 14”
Signature splash 12”
Signature precision thin crash 16”
2002- 16” thin crash
2002- 17” thin crash
Formula 602 classic paper thin 18”

In general, I like the 2002’s over the 602’s. The whole lot noted above is now on my “wish list”.

At present I use 2 A Zildjian 26” rides, one heavy one medium heavy, an A Zildjian 22” heavy, 2 A Zildjian 20” all rides, 16”, 17”, and 18” thin crash Bosporus, a 12” A Zildjian splash, a Paiste 20” power ride (my favorite), and 2 sets of high hats- 14” Bosporus and 16” Zildjian heavy hats. I know it sounds like a lot of rides but I use them all. I like to end a fill on the ping of a ride or a combination of an easy crash and ping of a ride at the same time and always with a bass drum hit at the same time.

I hope this gives an idea of who I am, how I think, what sounds good to my ears... My ears really like my Paiste 20” power ride and the Paiste sound files above. I feel like a traitor for moving away from Zildjian.
 

cymbal.wiki

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Sorry to keep you hanging. The $620 was on eBay as a new open box. Since last weekend I have found them all over the map on conditions and prices.
Thanks for that. That is $35 less than MAP, so if it is still covered by warranty and has free shipping then you save a few bucks. And yes, if you look at used ones you will find them all over the place on condition and price. I cringe every time somebody asks about the used price of a particular cymbal and people glibly say "just check the completed sales on eBay". That's where having a data analyst on tap who has lots of data is a handy thing. Prices and context are here:

 
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Pickinator

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It seems that everyone charges the same for brand new; Sweetwater, musicians friend, Sam ash, guitar center, all charge the exact amount to the penny on most Paiste cymbals.
Even new on eBay from many music stores.

Individuals offer the potential better prices but at a risk?
 

cymbal.wiki

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It seems that everyone charges the same for brand new; Sweetwater, musicians friend, Sam ash, guitar center, all charge the exact amount to the penny on most Paiste cymbals.
Even new on eBay from many music stores.

Individuals offer the potential better prices but at a risk?
That's MAP at work. Sorry I trotted out a TLA (Three Letter Acronym) without explaining. Dealers are required to keep to the Minimum Advertised Price so it doesn't vary. Break ranks and a cymbal manufacturer can drop the retailer. The "open box" or "demo" ruse gets around that...somewhat. That's why I mentioned still coming with a warranty. You need to consider warranty and shipping cost which may differ with "open box".

You may be able to negotiate a better deal with a real shop privately but it won't be advertised.

Hope this helps and enjoy the hunt.
 
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