Paiste Dark Ride Comparison

Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
722
Reaction score
179
Location
NY-NJ
Back to the original question. In my humble opinion, and I've played them ALL!!! SCDR, DE, ME, Trads, 602.... The closest that I have played to the SCDR is the 22" Trad Med Light. It doesn't have the chime of the SCDR which is what I call the "signature" shank sound of the cymbal, but the stick is very close. The SCDR has a little more cut, and the bell on the SCDR is icier and more cutting, but in the same ballpark in pitch. Stick to wash ratio is very similar, neither act as a "traditional" crash sound very well, they are just too heavy for that. That's why the SCDR "shank-chime" sound is so cool. It acts as a nice lower volume accent.

I LOVE my 22" SCDR's, so much that I have two. It's THE jazz ride cymbal sound that I hear in my head when I'm away from the instrument. One of my SCDR's is a 70's version with 2 heavy rivets, and one is an 80's version (not New Dimensions) with the same rivets. I like the older one more. It's light for a SCDR (3093g) but the two are very close in sound. I use them for jazz. My 22" Trad Med Light is my large venue-outside rock cymbal, I don't like rivets for rock. A GREAT all around cymbal.

I could use one of the SCDR's for rock but.... The reason for all three is that I keep my jazz cymbal bag packed (70's SCDR,) my rock cymbal case packed (22" Trad,) and my at home-practice-teaching cymbals set up at home (newer SCDR and other Paiste stuff.) I just hate packing and unpacking, I guess older age has made me lazier!

All in all I think of the 22" Trad Med Light as a quieter, more "blendy" version of the SCDR without the chime. As has been said, NOTHING creates the sound of the SCDR.... NOTHING!!! Period. But the closest Paiste that I have played is the 22" Trad Med Light. Second would be the 22" Modern Essential.

Why are the SCDR's so unique? Well, I will leave that to the cymbalsmith experts. But the unique combination of the lower (flatter) profile, the little downward turn a few inches in, the ultra heavy hammering at the bridge, the big golf ball hammering throughout, the size of the bell, and the metal alloy would be good places to start. And to my knowledge, nothing else has ALL of those unique characteristics all wrapped up on one instrument.

MSG
 

zenstat

Senior Cymbal Nerd
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
4,168
Reaction score
996
Location
Auckland New Zealand
Thanks Mark,

I've taken the liberty of making an itemized list from your recipe with [my comments]

  • lower (flatter) profile, [check]
  • the little downward turn a few inches in, [check with a check on terminology below]
  • the ultra heavy hammering at the bridge, [check]
  • the big golf ball hammering throughout, [check]
  • the size of the bell, [what is the size of the bell on the 22?]
  • and the metal alloy [same as Fo 602 alloy, different from B20 Masters alloy and B15 Signature alloy]

I had a 20" SC Medium Dark New Dim and the bell was the same as the one on an 18" Bright Medium as far as I could tell back then. So 4.5" vs 5" which you would find on a 20" Fo602. Now I've got better measurement tools but alas I sold that SCMDND and can't recheck. That would make the bell a little smaller than the corresponding diameter of Fo602 model. Are you (or anybody) able to compare a 22" Dark Ride bell with the bells of other Fo602 models? Are the Dark Ride bells a little smaller and that's part of achieving the Dark sound?

I've also got a 22" Medium Light Ride (in part after your recommendation) and yes it is in the same ballpark. I didn't mention it before because for me it is in a bit lighter weight class (around 2800g) and a bit different in sound, plus my mind was focused on models which say Dark. :icon_e_wink: One of the things I like about the Trads is they seem to have a bit shorter sustain than their Fo602 counterparts which is a preference for me. But that could just be the individual cymbals I've tried.

Just to check on terminology, are you talking about a flange on the outer edge when you mention the little downward turn? Outer edges of some cymbals have a change in the curvature near the edge (last inch or two). This can be downward, or almost flat to upward (think Sabian Sound Control edge or Zildjian Pang) but I'm speaking of something less than a China or Swish. SCDR flat profile with downward flange

22-3054-pro.jpg


And so people know what we're talking about in the hammering

Screen Shot 2019-10-19 at 9.11.02 AM.png


The rings of hammering around the bell bow transition seem to be a general Sound Creation Dark thing. I didn't mention the hammering on the bell in my annotation but it's another feature. The extra hammering around the bell occurs on Dark Hats as well as Bell Rides. I think Dark Crashes have it as well but I haven't got good photos in my archives to be sure. Even more general as a Sound Creation attribute is fine tonal groove lathing.

Note that the hammering on the 22" SCDR is different from the Fo 602 Dark Ride. The 602 Dark hasn't got much Golf Ball, hasn't got visible hammering on the bell, hasn't got the same sort of hammering ring on the bell bow transition. A 1975 example

22-3266-top.jpg


This 1977 example is what's called Transitional but has moved to SCDR hammering except on the bell

22-3284-top.jpg


so we can see how Paiste were experimenting with the design along the way. I'm still trying to put together a more complete picture but we've learned a bit in the last few years thanks to many contributors.
 
Last edited:

bongomania

DFO Master
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
3,958
Reaction score
931
Location
Portland, OR
Here’s a pic from the auction of the 18 I just bought. On the one hand it’s flippin gorgeous looking, but otoh if I don’t like it I know that very few people want an 18 ride. Fingers crossed.
9F977C7F-358E-4A6D-B082-D17121786D97.jpeg
 

zenstat

Senior Cymbal Nerd
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
4,168
Reaction score
996
Location
Auckland New Zealand
Ah, the Medium Dark Ride New Dimension. You just mentioned SCRD not SCMDRND so I wasn't suitably impressed. :icon_e_wink: The one I had was a 20" version as I mentioned earlier. They are Dark Tangy as SKINZ says. I sold mine in a fit of cleaning out things I wasn't using. I'm very happy with the Trad Med Light 22", and my Fo 602 Deep Ride (SSS7), but I do miss the SCMDRND occasionally.
 
Last edited:

tkillian

DFO Veteran
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
1,703
Reaction score
321
I am not saying the rough ride is the closest modern cymbal to the SCDR. I am just providing a raw video example. You can decide.
MSG has a point....the Paiste trad medium light 22" IS close ....in that it is drier than the RR but I think the Rough Ride has some stuff in there that is more like the SCDR.

In the mix of a band my Rough Ride really sounds "complex" but clean....its a great cymbal...

Turn your volume down a bit. I recorded it a bit "hot"

 
Last edited:

multijd

Very well Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
1,030
Reaction score
364
Location
Buffalo, NY
Thanks Mark,

I've taken the liberty of making an itemized list from your recipe with [my comments]

  • lower (flatter) profile, [check]
  • the little downward turn a few inches in, [check with a check on terminology below]
  • the ultra heavy hammering at the bridge, [check]
  • the big golf ball hammering throughout, [check]
  • the size of the bell, [what is the size of the bell on the 22?]
  • and the metal alloy [same as Fo 602 alloy, different from B20 Masters alloy and B15 Signature alloy]

I had a 20" SC Medium Dark New Dim and the bell was the same as the one on an 18" Bright Medium as far as I could tell back then. So 4.5" vs 5" which you would find on a 20" Fo602. Now I've got better measurement tools but alas I sold that SCMDND and can't recheck. That would make the bell a little smaller than the corresponding diameter of Fo602 model. Are you (or anybody) able to compare a 22" Dark Ride bell with the bells of other Fo602 models? Are the Dark Ride bells a little smaller and that's part of achieving the Dark sound?

I've also got a 22" Medium Light Ride (in part after your recommendation) and yes it is in the same ballpark. I didn't mention it before because for me it is in a bit lighter weight class (around 2800g) and a bit different in sound, plus my mind was focused on models which say Dark. :icon_e_wink: One of the things I like about the Trads is they seem to have a bit shorter sustain than their Fo602 counterparts which is a preference for me. But that could just be the individual cymbals I've tried.

Just to check on terminology, are you talking about a flange on the outer edge when you mention the little downward turn? Outer edges of some cymbals have a change in the curvature near the edge (last inch or two). This can be downward, or almost flat to upward (think Sabian Sound Control edge or Zildjian Pang) but I'm speaking of something less than a China or Swish. SCDR flat profile with downward flange

View attachment 413650

And so people know what we're talking about in the hammering

View attachment 413652

The rings of hammering around the bell bow transition seem to be a general Sound Creation Dark thing. I didn't mention the hammering on the bell in my annotation but it's another feature. The extra hammering around the bell occurs on Dark Hats as well as Bell Rides. I think Dark Crashes have it as well but I haven't got good photos in my archives to be sure. Even more general as a Sound Creation attribute is fine tonal groove lathing.

Note that the hammering on the 22" SCDR is different from the Fo 602 Dark Ride. The 602 Dark hasn't got much Golf Ball, hasn't got visible hammering on the bell, hasn't got the same sort of hammering ring on the bell bow transition. A 1975 example

View attachment 413657

This 1977 example is what's called Transitional but has moved to SCDR hammering except on the bell

View attachment 413658

so we can see how Paiste were experimenting with the design along the way. I'm still trying to put together a more complete picture but we've learned a bit in the last few years thanks to many contributors.
It is interesting how these subtle variations in hammering design are so controlled And scientific. The K Zildjian patterns seem more random and intuitive. And maybe the casts are so consistent that they could be very defined in their hammering. The K casts more variable / inconsistent therefore requiring more personal approach.
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
722
Reaction score
179
Location
NY-NJ
Thanks Mark,

I've taken the liberty of making an itemized list from your recipe with [my comments]

  • lower (flatter) profile, [check]
  • the little downward turn a few inches in, [check with a check on terminology below]
  • the ultra heavy hammering at the bridge, [check]
  • the big golf ball hammering throughout, [check]
  • the size of the bell, [what is the size of the bell on the 22?]
  • and the metal alloy [same as Fo 602 alloy, different from B20 Masters alloy and B15 Signature alloy]

I had a 20" SC Medium Dark New Dim and the bell was the same as the one on an 18" Bright Medium as far as I could tell back then. So 4.5" vs 5" which you would find on a 20" Fo602. Now I've got better measurement tools but alas I sold that SCMDND and can't recheck. That would make the bell a little smaller than the corresponding diameter of Fo602 model. Are you (or anybody) able to compare a 22" Dark Ride bell with the bells of other Fo602 models? Are the Dark Ride bells a little smaller and that's part of achieving the Dark sound?

I've also got a 22" Medium Light Ride (in part after your recommendation) and yes it is in the same ballpark. I didn't mention it before because for me it is in a bit lighter weight class (around 2800g) and a bit different in sound, plus my mind was focused on models which say Dark. :icon_e_wink: One of the things I like about the Trads is they seem to have a bit shorter sustain than their Fo602 counterparts which is a preference for me. But that could just be the individual cymbals I've tried.

Just to check on terminology, are you talking about a flange on the outer edge when you mention the little downward turn? Outer edges of some cymbals have a change in the curvature near the edge (last inch or two). This can be downward, or almost flat to upward (think Sabian Sound Control edge or Zildjian Pang) but I'm speaking of something less than a China or Swish. SCDR flat profile with downward flange

View attachment 413650

And so people know what we're talking about in the hammering

View attachment 413652

The rings of hammering around the bell bow transition seem to be a general Sound Creation Dark thing. I didn't mention the hammering on the bell in my annotation but it's another feature. The extra hammering around the bell occurs on Dark Hats as well as Bell Rides. I think Dark Crashes have it as well but I haven't got good photos in my archives to be sure. Even more general as a Sound Creation attribute is fine tonal groove lathing.

Note that the hammering on the 22" SCDR is different from the Fo 602 Dark Ride. The 602 Dark hasn't got much Golf Ball, hasn't got visible hammering on the bell, hasn't got the same sort of hammering ring on the bell bow transition. A 1975 example

View attachment 413657

This 1977 example is what's called Transitional but has moved to SCDR hammering except on the bell

View attachment 413658

so we can see how Paiste were experimenting with the design along the way. I'm still trying to put together a more complete picture but we've learned a bit in the last few years thanks to many contributors.
Yes Zen that is the "downward turn" (your term of flange is much better) that I am talking about. I also have a pre serial pair of 602 hats (that I LOVE) that has that same characteristic on the top cymbal.

Zen, if you want, I can measure the bells of my two SCDR's and my 602 22" Paperthin for you, and my 22" Medium Light (if you want it.) I just don't know how you measure bells now, PM me to let me know your new MO for bell measuring.

I have become even more convinced of the strong influence of bell size recently. I got a 21" K Con special run Paul Francis "small bell" ride that is one of the best K Cons that I have ever heard. I also got a couple of original Paiste Twenty Masters Edition Dark Rides (whose bells are also pretty small) that are absolute KILLERS.

When I look at all of the rides that I own, and that I LOVE, (I don't own anything that I don't love) they all (except for an older 20" EAK and the aforementioned 21" PF K CON Small bell) have relatively small bells and flatter profiles. (Probably not a coincidence that I also love 602 flats, and don't like the various umbrella shaped Istanbul "type" rides.) It would seem that I have a "type."

MSG
 

bongomania

DFO Master
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
3,958
Reaction score
931
Location
Portland, OR
Here’s a pic from the auction of the 18 I just bought. On the one hand it’s flippin gorgeous looking, but otoh if I don’t like it I know that very few people want an 18 ride. Fingers crossed.
View attachment 413667
Got it today. Intriguing! It matches the sound and feel descriptions Zen and others provided; more than anything, this particular 18 reminds me of a flat ride. Crisp dark stick with little sustain or wash, and a very dark crash sound also with short sustain. I’ll post a recording in the next few days.
 

SKINZ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
187
Reaction score
46
Location
EAST ATL
Got it today. Intriguing! It matches the sound and feel descriptions Zen and others provided; more than anything, this particular 18 reminds me of a flat ride. Crisp dark stick with little sustain or wash, and a very dark crash sound also with short sustain. I’ll post a recording in the next few days.

NICE I have a 18 SOUND CREATION DARK CRASH that rides and crashes plays lighter than it is nice tangs n tahs only Sound Creations have that havent heard in it in any other cymbals..... :cool:
 

Latest posts



Top