Paiste Dixie

Black Label

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I recently scored a good condition Paiste Dixie. Here's some pics. How can I tell whether it is B8 or NS. It is a 1500g 20" medium thin - made in Switzerland. Thanks guys
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zenstat

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I don't know why it was called a "Dixie" :dontknow: but I do have access to some of the lost Paiste-Only information which we are working on restoring to the new Paiste section of Cymbal.Wiki

Dixie


Dixie Logo

Dixie Logo
Dixie

Dixie
Introduction: 1956 - 1978 (subject to further checking)
Background:
Innovation:
Alloy:
NS12 (Nickel-Silver Alloy), later CuSn8 (2002 Alloy)
Quality: Entry level cymbals


Crash/Ride - 18" 20" 22"

Medium Thin - 10" 11" 12" 13" 14" 15" 16" 18" 20" 22" 24"

Hi-Hat - 13" 14" 15" 16"

Marching (medium heavy) - 12" 13" 14" 15" 16"


Erik: the ink on that one makes it later, but I don't know how much later. Later makes it more likely to be B8 but I don't know how much more likely. There is supposed to be a general changeover to B8 from NS12 phased in in the later 1960s across many series but not all the details are known yet. Your looks late 60s ink style to me, but I'm not the Dixie expert. In the meantime may I add your nice photos to our library pending getting the specific model info re-written? You'll see that although some of the above are links they don't all work because many pages weren't backed up in the WayBack Machine. We've been getting back what we can and collecting replacements for missing photos.
 
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1up2dn

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thats a beautiful cymbal...definitely a B8... i have a 1965 NS 20" Dixie...totally different (btw it was my 1st cymbal)
 

zenstat

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thats a beautiful cymbal...definitely a B8... i have a 1965 NS 20" Dixie...totally different (btw it was my 1st cymbal)
I'm always after more photos so if you have pics of your 1965 Dixie they would be most welcome.

I mentioned the unreliability of picking alloys from photos recently and gave some examples of what you are up against. With photos you have to consider lighting temperature and color balance and the difficulty of assessing color if you don't have some standardized color balance target in the frame. I've collected up some examples of how different the same cymbal alloy can look within a single frame



or in different photos of the same cymbals



and the effect of cleaning



As part of the general alloy section for Cymbal.wiki which will also include high spec PMI work on alloy samples from many different cymbals along with lower spec work which I've managed to collect up from different places over the years.
 

dale w miller

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I’ve been playing Paiste exclusively since ‘85 and I have never heard of Dixie. Can someone tell me about its history?
 

zenstat

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I’ve been playing Paiste exclusively since ‘85 and I have never heard of Dixie. Can someone tell me about its history?
Other than the info I posted above there is just a little bit of info in The Cymbal Book on pages 160 and 161.

"Dixie and Stambul (1956) were probably the first Pasite series that had specific series names. The Stambuls, bearing the name of the old city-center of Istanbul, were released in nicklel silver. In 1965 they were upgraded and re-released, this time in B8." (p160)

"Stanople was the name of medium-budget series in the fifties and sixties, made in the German factory. The Dixie and Stambul series were replaced by the 404 and 505's in 1978, that were in turn replaced by the 400 and 1000 series in 1987." (p161)

Of course we now have evidence of both German and Swiss production for a number of series which used to be thought to be produced in just one factory or the other. My fellow Paiste researchers may have some ads or catalogs showing Dixie offerings and that might help pin down whether Dixie was a "stencil brand" (as in produced for a specific customer) or a generally available series. And of course both could be true at different times. There is a Dixie cymbal for sale locally but the asking price is still a bit too high for me to grab it just for adding to my research collection. The choice of the name Dixie does seem unusual since many of the series names tend to suggest links back to the origin of Turkish shaped cymbals in Istanbul (eg Stambul, Stanople).
 

GeeDeeEmm

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I'm not a Paiste user, but I'm always interested in reading the research you guys have done. Excellent.

Just out of curiosity, does Paiste help you in any way, or have they simply kept no historical logs?

GeeDeeEmm
 

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Thank you guys for the input and, as always, Zen for the much valued and well researched information. It is much appreciated. Here's a little video that I made of it - it certainly has a different sound which is interesting but not very B8ish _ well not the B8's that I know
 

zenstat

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Yes I had a Dixie MIJ drum set early 70s .
I finally went looking and here are catalog images:


It seems Grossman Music Corp. was the distributor (and/or retailer?) and they were also offering A Zildjian and Pasha (Italian ones from UFiP) cymbals at a higher price point. Grossman get a mention in the The Cymbal Book as regards Pasha (p165) and from my catalog based work I also see Rogers offered Pasha in some years (1961-1966) and Pasite in later years (1976 on). It wouldn't be the first time that drum sellers had both Italian and Swiss cymbals on offer in their catalogs along with Zildjian. As the Dixie series from Paiste goes back to 1956 we would need a bit more info to know if that is the first time the Dixie name was used for drums.

I'm not a Paiste user, but I'm always interested in reading the research you guys have done. Excellent.

Just out of curiosity, does Paiste help you in any way, or have they simply kept no historical logs?

GeeDeeEmm
Thanks. I am on friendly terms with all cymbal companies but operate independently. No free cymbals, but good support for which I thank them. I sometimes recieve excellent historical info from cymbal companies, but more often I'm mindful that I prefer them to spend their time creating wonderful cymbals rather than answering my nerdy questions. And in the 1940s through 1970s they were just busy producing cymbals and not keeping that many paper records for the future. Who knew these things were even going to become collectable? :dontknow: I'm just one of a number of people trying to collect up info, so I also have a long list of fellow researchers to thank. :hello1:
 
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ThomFloor

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At only 1500 g for a 20 inch cymbal, I don't think it can be B8 (CuSn 8 ) alloy. NS12 (NiAg12) has a lower density and would explain the low weight for that size.

Interesting thread. Have seen a few Dixies' floating around used, some for very cheap.
 
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1up2dn

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mine is dented and abused and has 8 rivets in it now so its not very photogenic...sounds nasty also
 

toddlittle827

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Hey guys, I'll chime on what I know of the Paiste Dixie

The best I can tell (and this is to a high degree of certainty) is the NS12 Dixie was released either in late 1958 but definitely by 1959 as it appears for the first time in the 1959 Paiste catalog I have along with the "new" Formula 602s and Stambuls.

On a side note, the date given in The Cymbal Book for the Paiste Stambul is also not 1956. I think the author is dating back to the opening of the Swiss factory (open for business in 1957 - preparation probably started in 1956) and ignoring that Paiste was open in Germany in 1947. The Stambul dates back to at least 1947 when Paiste started up again after World War II and according Paiste itself was first made in 1932. Although it's likely that Paistes made before the War did not have a series name and might not have been marked as Paiste even. This we won't know until a documented pre-War Paiste is found.

Dixies were made from this time (1958/9) until the end of 1977 or very early in 1978 when the B8 Dixie was replaced by the 404.

The Medium Thin and Crash Ride designations and the Paiste Dixie logo stamp seem to go along with the release of the B8 Dixie as does the addition of the 22" size to the line. I am not exactly sure when they switched the alloy from NS12 to B8 but I think it happens between 1968 and 1970. The earliest documented piece I have showing what looks to be the B8 Dixie lineup is from July, 1970. So by July, 1970 the change happens imo. I am of the opinion the alloy switch in Stambul happens in 1966 (and I mean the regular Stambul line not the Stambul '65 - two different lines, one did not replace the other as many mistakenly think) and then Dixie and Super went to B8 later on.

*** I have come across what look/sound to be NS12 Dixies (like the one above) with these designations and the logo stamping as shown on OP's cymbal but these could be leftover NOS cymbals that were sitting around the factory and dressed up to look newer and sold off. Something I have seen Paiste do with 602s, Sound Creatiions, 505s etc.

So that could be what this cymbal is, a leftover NS12 Dixie that got the stamping of the newer B8 style. Or perhaps there was a phase of time where the Dixies transitioned to B8 with these two new designations and stamping first on late period NS12 cymbals, but I would say, by the introduction of serial numbers in 1972 all the Dixies seem to be made of B8 by this time.


I have pictures of Swiss-made Dixies with serial numbers so if you have a Swiss B8 Dixie without a serial number I'd say it was definitely made between 1970 and mid-1972 and possibly could be as old as 1968, again depending on when the alloy switch happens. Even if the cymbal above is NS12 the stamping indicates it's a post-1967 cymbal.

The German B8 Dixies made post-1972 will all have serial numbers starting with a "1" as the German factory numbered sequentially, not first digit = year of production. Looking at second digit will give you a general idea of when it was made i.e. 16xxxxx will be 1976 or 1977.

NS12 Dixie lineup 1959-1967 (or to 1969)

10", 11", 12", 13", 14", 15", 16", 18", 20" (Jazz, Hi Hat, Marching) * the Hi Hats and Marching cymbals probably came in the sizes specified below in the B8 lineup. According to the price sheets I have, the cymbals came in one Standard weight.

*** I have yet to see an old NS12 type stamped "Standard" - could be they weren't type stamped at all or perhaps they were stamped as "Medium" Hard to say as very, very few Paiste cymbals from the old Nickel Silver days still have the type stamp ink left on them.

*** The 10" size was introduced sometime in the 1960s. It was not part of the initial launch.

B8 Dixie lineup (possibly could also apply to late period NS12 cymbals) 1970 (possibly earlier) to 1974

Medium Thin

10", 11", 12", 13", 14", 15", 16", 18", 20", 22"

Crash Ride

18", 20", 22"

Hi Hats

13", 14", 15", 16"

Marching Cymbals (Medium Heavy weight)

12", 13", 14", 15", 16"

B8 Dixie lineup 1975-1977

Crash Ride

10, 11", 12", 13", 14", 15", 16", 18", 20", 22"

Marching Cymbals (Medium Heavy weight)

12", 13", 14", 15", 16"

* At this point (likely starting a year prior in 1975) the 1976 Paiste catalog shows all cymbals (at least out of the German factory) are now designated Crash Rides and the Medium Thin designation is gone. These cymbals are probably typed stamped in black ink as opposed to the earlier red type stamp ink. It is possible the Swiss factory stopped making Dixies at some point in 1974 to concentrate on the 2002s and 602s and development of the 404 and 505 lines began at this point.

A good question here is did the smaller sizes that were exclusive to the Medium Thin designation (10"-16") prior get beefed up a bit (to better "qualify" as Crash Rides) or were they the same weight as before and just stamped differently for simplification as they wound down production of the line?


*** In early 1978 the last of the leftover Dixie stock were given a "Paiste 404" stamp above the bell before the introduction of the "true" 404s.


As for the name "Dixie" I used to think it stemmed from the work with Ludwig, that perhaps the Dixie was simply the Paiste verison of the Ludwig Standard. I no longer think that.
Due to the available sizes and weights, I am now of the opinion the Ludwig Standards and their predecessor the Ludwig "3-Star" were alternate versions (possibly thinner- maybe a little more cheaply made) of the Stambul. I think the Stanoples that Ludwig sold from 1967-1973 were actually Dixies with a different name and emboss as the available sizes and weights seem to match up to a very high degree.

So, where the name Dixie comes from? I don't know. It might be because the Dixie was a thinner, more Americanized cymbal than the NS12 Stambul and NS12 Zilko Standard or something along those lines. Or maybe because Paiste was becoming more of a player on the world stage (and starting to sell in the USA) they moved away from the Turkish sounding names.
 
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toddlittle827

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At only 1500 g for a 20 inch cymbal, I don't think it can be B8 (CuSn 8 ) alloy. NS12 (NiAg12) has a lower density and would explain the low weight for that size.

Interesting thread. Have seen a few Dixies' floating around used, some for very cheap.

yes, it looks like the 20" Medium Thin B8 Dixies came in at around 1650g
 

Stretch Riedle

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I'm always after more photos so if you have pics of your 1965 Dixie they would be most welcome.

I mentioned the unreliability of picking alloys from photos recently and gave some examples of what you are up against. With photos you have to consider lighting temperature and color balance and the difficulty of assessing color if you don't have some standardized color balance target in the frame. I've collected up some examples of how different the same cymbal alloy can look within a single frame



or in different photos of the same cymbals



and the effect of cleaning



As part of the general alloy section for Cymbal.wiki which will also include high spec PMI work on alloy samples from many different cymbals along with lower spec work which I've managed to collect up from different places over the years.
Hey Zenstat,
Would you happen to know what was used to clean half of the cymbal pictured above? It's VERY effective!
(I've been using Bar Keepers Friend)
Thanks for letting me know,
Stretch
 

zenstat

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Hey Zenstat,
Would you happen to know what was used to clean half of the cymbal pictured above? It's VERY effective!
(I've been using Bar Keepers Friend)
Thanks for letting me know,
Stretch
I'm not sure what was used to clean that one. I should probably have kept that in my notes. I've also seen at least one Youtube video where someboy have divided a cymbal into pie slices with tape and used different cleaners on different slices. Something else I don't think I kept a link to. I've experimented about with a few different cleaning products and there are lots of options either chemical based or abrasive based (or both). But I'm not even a big cymbal cleaner. It's just that I had a few which were really gunked up and I decided to see what a light cleaning did for them.

Steve
 

zenstat

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My best guess would be to associate it with USA, jazz or Dixieland
Gretsch was also making a Dixieland snare around the same time
Can you dig it?
You ain't just whistling Dixie, and that's the truth! :glasses8:

Perhaps there is somebody left at Paiste (or Ludwig) who might know. :dontknow: If so, we might find out and it will be another small footnote on the Dixie page of cymbal.wiki when we do. In the interim we've got plenty to catch up on. But it feels great to be making progress.
 

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