Paiste Giant Beats?

tripp2k

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After seeing this thread, I posted a video of my Multi's . I used to play Custom A's and 2002's and Rude's. Still have 2002's but my Giant Beat reissues are my favorites now.

That is exactly how I remember them sounding. The ride was a bit too much for what I personally was looking for. The crashes sound great. Perhaps I need to check out the 602 line.

What hats are you using?
 

tripp2k

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when i got the 24, i wanted it to sound like ''what is and what should never be''. it didn't and i was disappointed.
You know, I think you have absolutely nailed the description of what I'm looking for in a ride. What did Bonzo use for this recording?
 

Gunnellett

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You know, I think you have absolutely nailed the description of what I'm looking for in a ride. What did Bonzo use for this recording?
I have a 24" White Label that absolutely kills!

When I saw the post my first thought was to mention "What is and What Should Never Be" but you guys beat me to it. We play "What Is and What Should Never Be" in my band and the cymbal nails it.
 

Ludwig26

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I never played the vintage 24. How do they compare with the reissue?
I find them to be a lot more complex than most, if not all rides I've played. I almost feel they would be better for jazz, than rock.
The 2002 24 is a bit easier to get better stick definition, but it's also substantially brighter. The 24 GB, it all comes down to accuracy, or it will wash out. I find the same with the 2002, but a larger sweet spot. 2002 will still wash out fairly easy, if you're all over the place too.
I've found putting either on an angle facing down a bit more works better for stick definition, especially on the GB.
I can't emphasize enough how much I like that 20 inch multi GB (reissue anyway). It's nice and dark, but natural, if that makes any sence?
The originals are thinner than the reissues,
BUT the later black ⚫ labels,
Have a different bell profile/shape,
So sounder different,
Compared to both original white labels&reissues.
 

tripp2k

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He used a 24" GB,
But with Ludwig 2A W/T sticks.
Re: The video example earlier in the thread. The sound is more sustainy and ringy for lack of a better description, while the song seems more dry and the wash is more controlled. Is this something more likely to be found in 602s?
 

stuart s

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That is exactly how I remember them sounding. The ride was a bit too much for what I personally was looking for. The crashes sound great. Perhaps I need to check out the 602 line.

What hats are you using?
15" 2002 Sound Edge red label


I've re-tuned that LM402 since that recording :D
 
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stuart s

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This sounds in the ballpark. Thoughts on the 602 medium 24"?

I like it, might suit Jazz a bit better than the Giant Beats. The 24" Giant Beat crashes great, sounds like the crashing from "Out On The Tiles" and washes much like what you would hear on "Stairway to Heaven".
 

Heartbeat

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I use my GBs all the time. The 20" is probably my favorite crash ever. I just recorded with the 18", 20", and 24" last weekend. And with my country-rock band, I use the 18" and 20" with my 22" 2002 ride and 15" 2002 heavy hats. My 15" GB hats do tend to stay home in the practice room, but they are great, too. I sold the 14" pair because I liked the lower pitch of the 15s better.
 

jmato

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I use GBs at every gig, usually only GBs (although I mix in other Paistes depending on the room). The new SE 15" hats are amazing. I wash-ride the 18, 20 and 22 for that Van Halen/Black Keys wall of cymbal sound. I think they are incredibly versatile, and sound great at low and high volumes.
 

Gunnellett

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I have a the 24" mentioned earlier, a newer 18" multi, and newer 15" hats. All great cymbals.

Been keeping an eye out for a used 20" multi for a good price or trade to complete the set.

I have not tried the crashes but would like to.
 

Johnny D

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The originals are thinner than the reissues,
BUT the later black ⚫ labels,
Have a different bell profile/shape,
So sounder different,
Compared to both original white labels&reissues.
Besides the bell, what's the sound difference between the original white label and black label GBs? I have three 20" white label GB Multis and they really are special. They're all pretty close in sound overall, but one in particular is very special. Would love your opinion on the difference between the white label and black label 20s". Thanks.
 

Johnny D

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i had a full set of white label giant beats. the 20'' was special and i wanted to keep it, but i could not break up the set when i sold them.

20 - great
15's - nice
24 - ok, but never really what i expected
18 - ok

View attachment 410523
I have three 20" white label 20" GBs. I had five originally... sold one through Maxwells and the other is still on consignment I believe... I also have a pair of 15" white label GB hats.

As p83 said, the 20" is special. Really special. I bought my first one in 2015 and spent a good amount of money based on my gut that it was the sound I was looking for. When I received the cymbal and played it, I was not disappointed. I brought it to a friend's drum shop and compared it to a reissue 20" GB with the intention of buying it as a back-up, but my white label blew it out of the water. They sounded similar, like they were in the same family, but the reissue didn't have the complexity and character of my older white label. I even emailed Erik Paiste asking if he had any white or black label GBs that I could buy and he said they had to remain in their vault as reference cymbals (which I certainly understand) and assured me the sound difference was due to the age of the metal etc.

In my typical obsessive-compulsive fashion, I went on a quest to find as many 20" white label GBs in good to excellent condition as possible. Over the years I accumulated five of them and as I said, I have three left. I just gigged with my favorite one the other night for the first time in a while. I had been playing a 50s 20" A. Zildjian that has a bit more stick definition than the GB, but when I took out the GB it was like putting on an old pair of comfortable shoes. If you're into Charlie Watts/older Stones, I'm fairly certain Charlie played a 20" GB as his ride (and crash) on Stones records and tours from 1969 until about 1974/75.

As p83 said, the 15" white label hats are nice, but just a tad bit light for live use for me. Both cymbals are about 950 grams. I use them at home every now and then.
 

zenstat

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The originals are thinner than the reissues,
BUT the later black ⚫ labels,
Have a different bell profile/shape,
So sounder different,
Compared to both original white labels&reissues.
Besides the bell, what's the sound difference between the original white label and black label GBs? I have three 20" white label GB Multis and they really are special. They're all pretty close in sound overall, but one in particular is very special. Would love your opinion on the difference between the white label and black label 20s". Thanks.
I'm as obsessive-compulsive about the basis for claims about differences in weights and profiles and sound as you are about cymbal collecting JD. And Paiste are as obsessive-compulsive about consistency of sound and cymbal metrics. So what I want to know from Ludwig26 is:

How many weights do you have in your samples of white labels, black labels, and reissues? I find that about 25 in each production era is good presuming it is a representative sample. Once you get to 25 the patterns start to settle down, although larger samples are better provided they are representative.

What statistical tests did you use to demonstrate that there is more variation between production eras then within production eras? Did you do this for several different diameters?

I presume when you say "thinner" you mean weighs less, although it may be that an actual measure of thickness is better. Did you measure thickness on the same sample of cymbals and if so in just one place or several? You need to measure in a few places to pick up taper (thinning of the metal) which might have changed between production eras. I use a 12" deep throat micrometer which can handle up to 22" cymbals but getting one for 24" and larger diameters is outside my research budget. This one:

deep-throat-cicrometer.jpg


How did you measure bell profile/shape? I use a profile gauge in my studies of bell profile/shape like this

contour-gauge.jpg


What methods do you use to measure how similar or different the cymbals are from one another? Do you use a panel of trained listeners? A representative sample of drummers? Are your listeners listening "blind" (don't know which cymbal is which) or are they aware. We know that if they are aware then alas some "listening with eyes rather than ears" creeps in to bias the results.

These things all indicate the strength of your evidence for a change. I get worried when very strong claims are made for differences on the basis of "I owned 4 over the years and they sounded different to me". Unfortunately when you have a close look that seems to be what some claims are based on. I'm hoping to learn more because I'm always trying to improve my own research methods.
 
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Ludwig26

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I'm not as anal-retentive as some as far as having specific measuring devices for bell profiles&shapes.I don't have any reissues to compare them to,
The sellers weighed them before the sale&sent me sound files,
I also compared them all side by side with a mates white, black &reissues
Mine sounded brighter, compared to his (different weights), the black labels being heavier some were darker in sound.
 

AtlantaDrumGuy

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Could it be that (even with Paiste), that piece of metal might be a little different than the next one? At the same time, the old 602s did seem to have variations. I can only assume that older GBs have some variations (I don’t know). But based on the 602 rides, at least the old ones, they didn’t seem as consistent like they are now.
 

zenstat

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Could it be that (even with Paiste), that piece of metal might be a little different than the next one? At the same time, the old 602s did seem to have variations. I can only assume that older GBs have some variations (I don’t know). But based on the 602 rides, at least the old ones, they didn’t seem as consistent like they are now.
Science says yes, all pieces of metal are a little bit different. It's a question of how much different. It's also a question of how much that difference in metal influences the perception of the final sound given that skilled people are involved in hammering, lathing, and then correcting the final sound so it meets the sonic specification. I haven't seen anybody use a measure of sonic consistency on a sample of, say 25, 602s from the early 60s vs the mid 70s. We're still at the level of "I owned 4 over the years and they sounded different to me" on this one as well. So yes it could be early 602s were more consistent. Or not.

I hope you all see that the more you argue for inconsistency (otherwise known as variability) the more important it is to base conclusions on representative samples of adequate size. It's a cornerstone of statistics. And it doesn't matter whether you are talking about sound or weight or profile or bell shape. If you don't do that then you should not generalize to all cymbals. You would do well to report what you actually observed:

"Mine sounded brighter, compared to his (different weights), the black labels being heavier some were darker in sound"

and not overgeneralize to whole classes of cymbals

"The originals are thinner than the reissues, BUT the later black ⚫ labels, Have a different bell profile/shape, So sounder different, Compared to both original white labels&reissues."

I'm not saying Paiste did not redesign the bell die for the black labels, and change the lathing style to make them thinner. That would be a very interesting thing to document. All I'm saying is we don't know from the information presented to date. I've done this sort of thing for the changes to Zildjian New Beats over the years.

new-beat-14.png



If somebody else wants to do the hard yards and document GBs or 602s before I get to it feel free. I'm available to consult on experimental design and data analysis, and yes "anal-retentive" ways of measuring things if you wish.
 

AtlantaDrumGuy

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It would be interesting to do a study of 602 and GB weights, just vintage ones. That would tell a story. I agree with Zen...need some more hard facts to put together over a few dozen.
 

Toast Tee

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Even today each Paiste I hit will sound a little different. When I bought my last 18 full, and 18 2002's, they had 4 Fulls in, and 3 2002's. I played them all, and they all sounded slightly different. I thought 1 of the Fulls sounded a good deal better than the rest. Same with the 2002's' although the 2002's were pretty close.
As for pre serial 602's, they actually sounded almost identical. Both 18 inch, and 7 gram difference. It could be just dumb luck, but I figured there would be a rather significant difference. Hit any 2 Zildjians from even the 80's. Same model, and size, but they can sound very different from each other.
Paiste may not make 2 cymbals that sound exactly alike, but I don't hesitate to order one online. I won't do that with any other cymbal co.
Zen, I wish I weren't color blind.
 

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