Paiste Twenty Discontinued? Erik vs. Marat

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drumaholic

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It is my understanding that Murat Diril, Ibrahim's brother has left Paiste and will no longer produce the Twenty line in Samsun, Turkey.

I understand orders had declined to the point he simply couldn't make it on the small orders, so he has started yet another company Murat Diril Renaissance Series.

You can check it out at http://www.muratdiril.com. He already has a website up and running and is producing what sounds to me, a cymbal that sounds a lot like the Twenty. Just thought I'd pass it along.

Now from Erik Paiste:


Hello,

Ive received some information about rumors travelling around the world on internet blogs and forums, regarding our Twenty Series. I thought it might be a good idea to make our side of the story public. Because I do not believe in marketing BS, I will keep it brief and to the point:

Paiste received raw materials, specifically unfinished goods, from Murat and Ibrahim Diril in Turkey. We then hammered and lathed this material to make Paiste cymbals, the Twenty series. It is not true that Twenty cymbals were made entirely by Diril, or that we just applied logos to finished cymbals received from them.

Unfortunately, what we are dealing with is a disgruntled supplier, who has lost both Paiste and another cymbal company as customers. Be that as may be, I still wish them well for the future.

We discontinued our relationship with the Diril brothers because of quality problems. A significant portion of the raw materials received did not conform to our standards, resulting in cymbals we had to destroy after our final quality control inspection. We had no choice but to wind up the relationship.

We will continue to offer the Twenty series, we will not discontinue it, and we will ensure that our customary quality and consistency applies. Thats the bottom line.

Any questions or comments are welcome to my attention at produktionsleiter@paiste.com.

My deep appreciation to all our fans and supporters for allowing us to continue to make great cymbals.

Erik Paiste

Now this from from Murat Diril:


Open letter to Mr. Erik Paiste


l saw your statement in ''Westernet 1'' with great astonishment and my workers who have made those cymbals felt betrayed.This feeling turned into disgust later on and l wanted everybody to know the real story.
ln your ''story'' you claimed that you only received ''raw materials, specifically unfinished goods from ''Murat Diril and hammering and lathing were carried out in your company in Switzerland.'' You also claimed that ''you discontinued your relationship with Murat because you had some quality problem.''
As you will very well remember ( if not, l can send a copy of your e-mail), it was me who decided not to continue our business relation when you complained about your increasing stocks as a result of the economic crises and stoped giving orders. You asked if we could wait for a while. We could not continue and decided to finish it.( e-mail is available for those interested).
Please tell me why you provided financing to buy a melting oven and why you send a press machine and a cutting machine to my factory from Switzerland two years ago. The most important of all why you wanted to buy some of our company shares so we could be partners. Since you do everything is in Switzerland you could have kept all these machines to yourself. You didnt want to do it, because it was very expensive to produce handmade cymbals in Switzerland and Samsun with cheap labour was the best place to make them. As you have said in practically all your brochures the best craftsmen Murat Diril was also there. We are still holding the moulds of different bells for Twenty Series.
I like to everybody to know that the photographs of Twenty series you see and the sounds you hear in my website were manufactured by my workers in my factory in Samsun/Turkey. The cymbals with those states were sent to Mr.Paiste. ''Made in Turkey'' trade mark should have been put on each cymbal for a long time..Only some sound development processes were carried out in Switzerland.
ln our files, we still have so many e-mails in which Mr. Paiste has repeatedly praises and confirms our work and quality.We will be more than happy to provide copies of such e-mails and a copy of partnership agreement to anybody who wishes to have them. l think Mr.Paiste should have been enough to tell the cymbals world that he had faced an uphill struggle for selling his Twenty series and had increasing stocks.lnstead he decided to put the blame on Murat Diril's shoulders and unfairly accuse him of producing low quality cymbals.
l will continue making top quality cymbals for good drummers who can not efford to buy expensive cymbals produced by so called ''big'' companies.You will see my quality cymbals wherever you go l will flood the cymbals market with the best quality products at a reasonable low prices.
Finally, l want everybody to know that the God is my witness that that everything l say here is true and my special thansk goes to you for waking me up before l become a slave of your company.l will enjoy freedom.
My personel regards

MURAT DIRIL
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Cannons

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Looks a little like "he said, he said" to me. I'm not sure who to believe, but Mr. Diril's letter reads sort of like a nutso rant. Based on the tenor of each missive, I'm inclined to give Paiste the benefit of the doubt.
 
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drumaholic

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Cannons said:
Looks a little like "he said, he said" to me. I'm not sure who to believe, but Mr. Diril's letter reads sort of like a nutso rant. Based on the tenor of each missive, I'm inclined to give Paiste the benefit of the doubt.
What would you say if I provided you with those emails he spoke of?
 

Cannons

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drumaholic said:
Cannons said:
Looks a little like "he said, he said" to me. I'm not sure who to believe, but Mr. Diril's letter reads sort of like a nutso rant. Based on the tenor of each missive, I'm inclined to give Paiste the benefit of the doubt.
What would you say if I provided you with those emails he spoke of?
I'd be more than willing to check them out. PM them to me if you want, and thanks.
 
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drumaholic

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Cannons said:
drumaholic said:
Cannons said:
Looks a little like "he said, he said" to me. I'm not sure who to believe, but Mr. Diril's letter reads sort of like a nutso rant. Based on the tenor of each missive, I'm inclined to give Paiste the benefit of the doubt.
What would you say if I provided you with those emails he spoke of?
I'd be more than willing to check them out. PM them to me if you want, and thanks.
I don't have them at this moment. I'm working on both confirming the authenticity of that letter as well as trying to get those emails. I have a connection with his brother Mustafa. He'll be able to get me everything I need if it's in fact available.
 

Cannons

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I will say that the cymbals on Marat's website look great, and the sound files are awesome.
 

Cannons

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drumaholic said:
I don't have them at this moment. I'm working on both confirming the authenticity of that letter as well as trying to get those emails. I have a connection with his brother Mustafa. He'll be able to get me everything I need if it's in fact available.
Cool. Thanks, Bill.
 

bermuda

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Mustafa sent a curious email a week ago, I suspect to multiple recipients (although I'm not sure why I'm on the list...)

Dear Mr,

My name is Mustafa Diril. I am the former producer of Byzance and Mb 20 cymbals for Meinl and Paiste Companies. However, I am not producing the cymbals for these companies anymore. Certainly, you know that Paiste and Meinl Companies have acquired a significant place in the world market thanks to that cymbols. I have to say that, to ignore my contributions and role in such a result for that companies would be an inequitable statement. As I stated before I haven't been producing cymbols for that companies.

For some reasons I ended my partnership with that companies. Anyway I decided to determine a new way in my business and find a new partner with whom I will trust and work for many years. I have a average capacity of producing 1000 hand made cymbols. Ofcourse I have also higher production capacity for higher demands. If you are interested in Byzance and Mb 20 model cymbols please have a contact with me. You can contact with the adresses given below. I will be very pleased if you reply me.

Best regards

Mustafa DIRIL
Samsun/Trkei
 
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drumaholic

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I'm very suspicious of Erik Paiste's claim that Diril sent Paiste blanks and Paiste hand hammered them in Switzerland.

1.Paiste hasn't hand hammered any cymbals since the late 1950's
2. Where would they now suddenly come up with highly skilled artisans able to do this?
3. The hammering looks like its the same as Diril's to me.
4. I believe that as was said, hand hammering in Switzerland (assuming they could find such artisans) would be very costly at labor prices there. It would make much more sense that they would be hammered in Turkey where the job could be done much more cheaply and then have the cymbals imported to Paiste in Switzerland just as Murat claims was done, and which was also done with the Mienl Byzance series.

So I admit that I'm prejudiced in favor of the Diril story based on this. But like I said, I intend to get to the bottom of all this so we can find out just who's really telling the truth here.
 

Coelacanth

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drumaholic said:
So I admit that I'm prejudiced in favor of the Diril story based on this. But like I said, I intend to get to the bottom of all this so we can find out just who's really telling the truth here.
I wait with bated breath for you to restore calm to my turbulent world.
 
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drumaholic

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jnyman said:
may I quote Alice Cooper?

"...and personally, I DON'T CARE.."

feud on, feud off... next!!
If you don't care then don't post.

There are others who do care.

This is for my benefit and theirs, and not yours.
 
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RickP

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I am interested to hear the final accounting of this story.I am a confessed Paisteaholic as many of you know here but to be honest with you , the Twenty series really disappointed me.I was very excited when I read Paiste was going to make a B20 cymbal again.Guess I was expecting a new 602 line or Sound Creations and the Twenty line isn't even close.I really found the Twenty line mediocre sonically , though I know a lot of people that love them ( especially the lighter models).For me, I will stick with my 2002s,Sound Creations,Dark Energies,Signatures and Dimensions.
 

Lee

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RickP said:
I am interested to hear the final accounting of this story.I am a confessed Paisteaholic as many of you know here but to be honest with you , the Twenty series really disappointed me.I was very excited when I ead Paiste was going to make a B20 cymbal again.Guess I was expecting a new 602 line or Sound Creations and the Twenty line isn't even close.I really found the Twenty line mediocre sonically , though I know a lot of people that love them ( especially the lighter models).For me, I will stick with my 2002s,Sound Creations,Dark Energies,Signatures and Dimensions.
I'm with you on this. I tried out the Twenty series and just was not impressed.
 

Coelacanth

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drumaholic said:
jnyman said:
may I quote Alice Cooper?

"...and personally, I DON'T CARE.."

feud on, feud off... next!!
If you don't care then don't post.

There are others who do care.

This is for my benefit.
Since you're great at taking snippets of someone's post out of context, I figured you'd find this very apt, Bill. :twisted: Btw, my apology that I gave you earlier--I take it back. That's quite the drum throne you use, btw. :p
 

jnyman

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drumaholic said:
jnyman said:
may I quote Alice Cooper?

"...and personally, I DON'T CARE.."

feud on, feud off... next!!
If you don't care then don't post.

There are others who do care.

This is for my benefit and theirs, and not yours.

No. Excuse me, but No. Here, let me restate it, without the whimsical reference to an old song. I'll just use plain English, because I'm as entitled as you are to make a statement about something on this forum---A FORUM THAT I AM MEMBER OF.

I think your public muckraking is premature and rude. i think you should've waited until you had a complete story-- presuming you'll even get one-- before you post it on the forum. I think this sort of premature gossip is bad for our forum. I think you should stop. I was trying to say that in a whimsical way.

Apparently you don't do whimsical. More's the pity.

jn
 
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drumaholic

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No. Excuse me, but No. Here, let me restate it, without the whimsical reference to an old song. I'll just use plain English, because I'm as entitled as you are to make a statement about something on this forum---A FORUM THAT I AM MEMBER OF.

I think your public muckraking is premature and rude. i think you should've waited until you had a complete story-- presuming you'll even get one-- before you post it on the forum. I think this sort of premature gossip is bad for our forum. I think you should stop. I was trying to say that in a whimsical way.

Apparently you don't do whimsical. More's the pity.

jn
I don't blame you. I didn't like the Paiste 20's that much either. But at least we finally got it settled that you do in fact care.
 

Pounder

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Dude--Bill! Keep the stuff coming! Does anyone else but me see the Paiste letter as merely being an attempt to smear Diril as he's now marketing his own cymbal line?

As for Diril. He is merely trying to defend his good name. I believe he is being completely honest about this. He has absolutely no reason to have his honesty or integrity questioned, as he is not even trying to smear anyone's name, but only protect his own.

Note that Diril was producing Meinl Byzance cymbals for quite a while. Meinl Byzance are the first Meinl cymbals I ever took note of, I found a used set of hats and they were simply INCREDIBLE cymbals. And they're made in Turkey--by Diril.

Paistaholics who don't like the Twenty series!?!? That also makes perfect sense. The alloy is different and if Diril is producing them in Turkey, then they're really Dirils, stamped on Paiste machines, right, hammered by Diril. I love Paiste Twenty series cymbals. I'm partial to B20 alloy, though. You know I love other Paistes as well. Old 2002, 3000 and 602 series are all excellent cymbals in their own right. They're a bit different, though. But this is another case of a very ambitious, long-time cymbal maker who is trying to take away the blame from his own cymbals while claiming that he's performing some of the hammering, in-house, when it is possible that he isn't.

That appears to be a knee-jerk PR reaction.

NOW quit telling Bill to stop controversial posts! He has every right to post any thing he wants to as long as it is non-political and on-topic.

He quotes the emails by the various parties in this situation and it is controversial and TOTALLY worthy of reading! EVEN if you can disprove what he's saying (you're welcome to present evidence to the contrary) Bill is within his rights to present the story. It is kinda funny if you ask me, people trying to defend this huge cymbal company against this single individual cymbal maker who is an artist and businessman still getting off the ground.

You can't keep a good man down! No matter what you think about this or whose side you're on, the competition and presence of Diril's cymbals in the market place is GOOD for every average and above-average drummer out there.

I was curious about Diril's product and perused his website: http://www.dirilcymbals.com/

And, I simply emailed the contact email and got a personal email response from Diril minutes later. Like I said the guy has been making the best that Paiste and Meinl has to offer, and I think he deserves a shot at his own business. The prices are great, too! Check 'em out! Nothing wrong with playing other than A. Zildjian, Paiste, or Meinl, or Sabian cymbals! More choice for drummers of today means you can actually project your artistry with greater accuracy, and the competition is good for my pocketbook too. But, hey--if you like paying $500 for a cymbal from Paiste--go right ahead and keep on. And feel free to argue with Bill but this crap about "he shouldn't be allowed to post this or that": YOU shouldn't be allowed.
 

Drumstyx7a

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Okay so here's the word ....

This item came up several months back. A member Drumeister is Glen Noyes who works for Guitar Center and he knows people. I asked him what he'd heard as I knew that Paiste and GC were doing some major deals. He contacted Erik Paiste and he joined the forum and put up a response to the first round of these rumours.

At that time, the Diril brothers had split up and the younger brother was making the claim that HE was the impetus behind the Twenty line for Paiste. He got a major busting from his other brother and from Paiste. His website reflected a change in the claim ... for a while.

I agree ... it's going to be he said she said just like any other business deal gone bad. What shows in the Diril response to Erik is nothing more than someone in a different country who really has no idea how business is done in a global economy. So what if Paiste sent them machines. It is something that is done between manufacturers and the people they sub contract with. A good friend of mine here in town has made a great living by buying machines for manufacturers and then leasing those same machines back to them and installing and maintaining them for the manufacturer. It's a good way for the manufacturer to not have to invest in a machine in case the deal goes south. If it does, usually the sub contractor steps in and takes up the lease on the machine. In no way am I suggesting that this is what happened but the scenario for Paiste cutting a deal and supplying machines to a sub is a common thing in the industry ... which apparently was lost on the Diril guy.

Secondly, why wouldn't Paiste back off of production? Everybody else who is really smart is doing it. Sounds more like Diril was counting on Paiste to be his bread and butter customer and wasn't looking at the long run and what would happen if he lost that customer.

Paiste's stance as I recall on the Twenty line was that the blanks were made in Turkey and then Paiste took them and refined them. Everyone was expecting a 602 reissue which the line obviously isn't. Some like the Twenty others don't. Doesn't really matter unless sales fall below expectations. Then it's another business decision ... try to change and improve or just forget about it altogether and discontinue the line?

Actually to me it appears like the Diril guy has taken a page out of P.T. Barnum's book ... "Any publicity is good publicity .." Also looking at that email towards the end it sounds just plain childish about he's going to make quality inexpensive cymbals and flood the market so to speak. More like, "Yeah just watch me nanner nanner ... " :roll: How sad. More power to him if he does make a great quality low priced product. But based on that email I'm not impressed that he can do it without someone helping him who knows the marketing end of the business.



Y'know? This seems to be a trend in cymbal making families and companies. Finger pointing and nyah, nyah talk. Is it news? Not really ... Is it gossip and innuendo? More than likely. Will if affect the final sound and quality of either Diril or Paiste cymbals and will it affect anyone's personal decision to buy either product? None whatsoever.


Take this argument over to these guys ... they can use the help to build up their membership ... http://cymbalforum.c...c.php?f=4&t=141 Oh wait!! That's where this came from !!!


Robb






Robb
 
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