Paul Francis left Zildjian?

varatrodder

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Next Meinl figured out people CARE and LIKE the fact that cymbals are made in Turkey (even when they are finished in Germany) There’s an appeal and mystery to Turk cymbals and Meinl capitalizes on that.
There's something to that. I've owned K Con's and Keropes, and they all sound like facsimiles of cymbals I can get from Turkish companies for a fraction of the price. The machine made cymbals don't quite have the same sound and feel as a real hand made cymbal.

It's almost like K Con and Kerope are to Turkish cymbals what the DW Jazz series are to Gretsch.
 

michaelg

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Sounds aside for the moment, from a metallurgical view, zildjian bronze is very high quality and I believe it's of superior quality to that of its turkish cousins. Has less imperfections and more consistent blanks/alloy to work with.
 

NobleCooleyNut

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Sounds aside for the moment, from a metallurgical view, zildjian bronze is very high quality and I believe it's of superior quality to that of its turkish cousins. Has less imperfections and more consistent blanks/alloy to work with.
You are aware that Zildjian takes the shavings and other scrap metal and then just remelts it right ? By doing this the integrity of the formula is not as consistent as it they used completely new ingots of metal . All the cymbal companies that cast and melt their own alloy do this . Paiste has their cymbal blanks made by a dedicated metal company , these blanks are more consistent .

I worked a few years as a Production Planner in a Metal foundry that made castings from a variety of metals . When metals get heated and formed and then recycled the molecular quality of the metal will be different from that of metal only worked once .

Stating that Zildjian bronze is of higher quality than their competitors is a subjective statement with no basis in solid fact .
 

michaelg

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You are aware that Zildjian takes the shavings and other scrap metal and then just remelts it right ? By doing this the integrity of the formula is not as consistent as it they used completely new ingots of metal . All the cymbal companies that cast and melt their own alloy do this . Paiste has their cymbal blanks made by a dedicated metal company , these blanks are more consistent .

I worked a few years as a Production Planner in a Metal foundry that made castings from a variety of metals . When metals get heated and formed and then recycled the molecular quality of the metal will be different from that of metal only worked once .

Stating that Zildjian bronze is of higher quality than their competitors is a subjective statement with no basis in solid fact .
I remember the late and great cymbalsmith Johan VDS once telling me that Sabian/Zildjian/Paiste alloy was superior to the turkish blanks he was getting, of which regularly had casting defects, impurities and was more prone to cracking when hammering than the big 3 alloys which was more consistent.

Edit, He also mentioned Tosco and Ufip as high quality bronze.
 

foxy_shazamtastic

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There's something to that. I've owned K Con's and Keropes, and they all sound like facsimiles of cymbals I can get from Turkish companies for a fraction of the price. The machine made cymbals don't quite have the same sound and feel as a real hand made cymbal.

It's almost like K Con and Kerope are to Turkish cymbals what the DW Jazz series are to Gretsch.
Zildjians do have a certain presence that the Turkish brands don’t have, though. I’ve had both and really appreciate the way Zildjians sit in the mix. Modern Turkish brands can get a little lost.
 

JDA

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right. There a discernible difference between (real) Turkish K Zildjians and Modern Turkish makers . Yet, Old K Zildjian have a similarity with American (machine made mostly) Zildjian that modern Turkish don't have.
In other words there's a "Zildjian" sound whether old Ks from Istanbul or American Zildjian. Weird. And can never figure it out but it exists. It's mainly the cup (bold, proud) and bridge (curved,) similarity.

What the modern Turkish makers have in common with Turkish K's are things less-so than sound; more, things like 'feel and time and response' but the exact bold Zildjian sound is with Zildjian (from either continent) only.
Not saying any are better than the other but just is.

Modern Turkish cymbals are modern. Light economical efficient tailored.
Old K Zildjians are epic, religious, (lol), mind shattering, other-worldly, event, sometimes too much (as in darn? do I need to go there)

Old Ks are the old V8 iron block and heads, no emission controls , points, carbs, straight pipes..
Modern Turkish cymbals overhead cams vari-valve timing closed loop emissions. aluminum block

Best I can say it is like this.
American Zildjian concentrates then captures (with some not all series and models) the Sound of old Turkish Zildjian.
Modern Turkish makers capture the manufacturing methods and techniques of old Turkish Zildjian which results in tangibles.

that there is how the difference presents itself. a choice difference what matter most to you at any given time. feel (modern Turkish old method manufacturing) or sound (the AK duplication process)
I'm OK most of the time with the tailored lighter-less-heavy Modern Turkish process result.
I think..
 
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markkarj

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They should explore putting b8 alloy through some of the processes they do with ks and such. Make a decent b8 cymbal
I wrote a piece on cymbal alloys that was published in Modern Drummer in 2007. It was pretty clear they had no interest at that time in exploring alloys other than B20. I know they did the Project 391 cymbals a few years ago using B15 (basically after Paiste's patent on the alloy had expired), but the cymbals sounded... weak.
 

bassanddrum84

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I wrote a piece on cymbal alloys that was published in Modern Drummer in 2007. It was pretty clear they had no interest at that time in exploring alloys other than B20. I know they did the Project 391 cymbals a few years ago using B15 (basically after Paiste's patent on the alloy had expired), but the cymbals sounded... weak.
B8 is a great alloy. Look what paiste has done. Wish zildjian and Sabian would experiment with it. I do know you can send any Sabian cymbal into them and pay to have it customized.
 

Redbeard77

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Zildjian got their lunch eaten by Meinl.
First Meinl went for all the social medialites - cheap advertising on the grand scheme of things. Next Meinl figured out people CARE and LIKE the fact that cymbals are made in Turkey (even when they are finished in Germany) There’s an appeal and mystery to Turk cymbals and Meinl capitalizes on that. My take is that Zildjian will have to go back to Turkey... it can help re-elevate the brand to go “back to its roots”. It’s all about branding and in that process, maybe find operational efficiencies from a labor POV.
I get the appeal of Turkish cymbals, but I like that Zildjians are made in the USA.
 

mtarrani

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I get the appeal of Turkish cymbals, but I like that Zildjians are made in the USA.
I never quite got the whole "Genuine Turkish Cymbals" tag. I mean, they are made in the USA by Armenians who left Turkey. It would be nice if all the good stuff was made here in the USA, but I found my sound not in USA cymbals, or even Turkish ... I switched to Chinese made Dream Bliss as the one brand that had the sound that I always wanted. These days, though I do have a set of Sabian (which I love), various Turkish made cymbals, and have fallen in love with the sound of certain Paiste lines because they match the pop and <gasp> country/Americana music that I am now playing. Never once, though, have I selected anything based on where it was made. Music gear, electronics, automobiles, etc. Well, food perhaps. I prefer a lot of my ingredients with which I cook to be from the countries or regions where the dishes I prepare were created.
 

David M Scott

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B8 is a great alloy. Look what paiste has done. Wish zildjian and Sabian would experiment with it. I do know you can send any Sabian cymbal into them and pay to have it customized.
Sabian has had B8 cymbals for decades. I use two 14in B8X for hats. I've had other B8's over the years. At one point I had a B8 medium ride in bright metal that I regret selling to this day.
 

David M Scott

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Yes, I heard him say he was one of two people who did the Keropes. Hopefully they didn't let the other person go, too.
With all the competing Turkish types available why should one worry about Zildjian ? I totally understand brand loyalty as
i'm Canadian and Sabian's success is a source of pride. I currently have 6 of theirs and have bought and sold three more. If however their quality fell off i'd have no qualms in switching horses mid race.
Just sayin
 

bassanddrum84

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Sabian has had B8 cymbals for decades. I use two 14in B8X for hats. I've had other B8's over the years. At one point I had a B8 medium ride in bright metal that I regret selling to this day.
Yes I know they use b8 I love them and rework them. I’m saying put them through a process like the would a higher end cymbal. Lance Campeau does it with amazing results
 

David M Scott

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Yes I know they use b8 I love them and rework them. I’m saying put them through a process like the would a higher end cymbal. Lance Campeau does it with amazing results
Sabian has i'm guessing more lines than any other mfr. The B8 is super successful at a popular price so you don't mess with success. So lets assume they upgrade the B8.. isn't that what they've done with the B8X ? In fact the B8 along with it's improvement that X version, is no longer their entry level product Their HH and HHX especially the Legacy HHX come very close to any Turk out there and to some peoples ears are significantly less expensive and maybe surpass them if only from the fact that there is great uniformity in their lines due I believe to strict quality control. So unless they have found some magic process to make the B8 super but keep the cost down then why would they dip their toe into uncharted waters ? Sabian sells 800,000 cymbals a year and that was when Andy Zildjian did interviews a couple of years ago. If Zildjian's market shrinks and considering their CEO's background as an expense chopper, that could happen then the other big three could pickup market share without changing a thing.
Consider that Zildjian the worlds biggest has made some major changes in management and i'm betting
that will also usher in a new marketing philosophy. Being biggest also doesn't mean profits are big. Ask GM. I've spent my entire working career, 60 years in marketing and management thereof. Considering the profitable position of the other big three all they have to do is see where the chips fall at Zildjian. No need to reinvent the wheel unless Zildjian comes up with something spectacular and it better be better than their current entry lines like the
ZBT.
 

msum

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Yes, I heard him say he was one of two people who did the Keropes. Hopefully they didn't let the other person go, too.
Wow, I’m surprised to hear this. Maybe it just betrays my ignorance...

On a semi-related note, does anyone have contact details for Paul (not his old Zildjian email, of course)? If so, can I get a PM?
 

Deafmoon

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The initial dispute between Armand and Robert Zildjian, that saw Sabian emerge in the fallout, should have been laid to rest when both brothers passed. It may just be in the cards for the future of cousins Andy Zildjian and Craigie Zildjian to merge and become ZILBIAN!
 

Deafmoon

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Wow, I’m surprised to hear this. Maybe it just betrays my ignorance...

On a semi-related note, does anyone have contact details for Paul (not his old Zildjian email, of course)? If so, can I get a PM?
He used to be on Linked In .
 


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