Philly Joe comping

Lorenzo1950

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Thank you. This might help with my drum set reading, which is extremely slow.
If this is early Philly Joe, it might be a bit easier to figure out. I find it extremely difficult on later recordings.
On the recording "No Time For Squares" he never seems to repeat a phrase.
When I try to follow him I get lost and will be playing on the beat when he is playing off the beat.
On this song the tempo is modest and his playing is more subdued.
I might have this album.
 

adamosmianski

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This is from the self-titled Sonny Clark Trio record from 1958. I think what you are referring to is "No ROOM for Squares". Hank Mobley. That's from 1963. So there's a 5 year difference there, but I don't know if I would call that "late" just yet. A lot of it is still pretty similar in respects to the comping. Check out the tune "Comin' Back" on "No Room for Squares". That's more similar in tempo to "Tadd's Delight". Maybe I'll transcribe some stuff from that record and put it up here.
 

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Is the 9 pages taken from the Top? It's not apparent at first must look closer..
Is the 9 pages an exact' transcript of the whole tune beginning w/ first bar etc. thxs
4 pages I'm sorry.
Where does that first page begin.
`

Ok.
"Here, I've transcribed Philly Joe's playing behind Sonny Clark's entire piano solo on "Tadd's Delight"

Ok. Now let's see where that begin's. (Got a time?)
Or did I miss that too, in the text (duh

Ok. What time mark does the transcipt start..
Save me some time. Thanks.

And so that it all matches up thanks. Good work


.
(very familiar with the miles davis version but not this one)) cool.
Time or measure/bar/ number would help me thxs.


Ok.Attempting to answer myself : ) it appears to be,
1:27 mark.
If you've a more exact thanks!
 

phillyjoe1205

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As far as Philly Joe comping you may want to check out his work on the Miles Davis Quintet Recordings with Coltrane, Red Garland, and Paul Chambers. Those were late 50's. Relaxin', Cookin'. Steaming, and Workin'......these are pretty straight forward tunes/standards that are good to study his style..definitely check out Milestones if you haven't already. He was the man.....
 

royal ace

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Good work Adam!
I didn't know of that recording by the magnificent Sonny Clark, he of the inimmitable touch, who inspired Bill Evans!
Thanks for that.

Philly Joe was a prime inspiration and model for me as an aspiring teenage jazz drummer during the late 50s and he remains a prime inspiration still.

By the way, I was born and raised in Pittsburgh also. While still in high school, I was lucky to have gigged with Dodo Marmaroso, Buzzy Renn, Tommy Turentine, Danny Conn and Dave Izenzon (my mentor) among other great Pittsburgh musicians.
My drumming mentor was the masterful Cecil Brooks Jr. His impeccable taste and swing were a model and inspiration and I am grateful for the kindness and generousity of his help.

Ron Schwerin
 

Lorenzo1950

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Philly Joe seems like the hardest drummer to copy so these transcriptions are very nice.
His left hand was always so busy I could never keep up with his ever changing ideas.
I would try to fashion my playing after the drummers that I understood better.
Philly Joe is still my favorite bop drummer.
I think Jimmy Cobb was a bit easier for me to figure out.
Tony Williams is another impossible drummer to copy note for note.
 

nanashi

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From the time this thread was posted, something has bothered me. Your transcription is good for showing what Philly Joe played but has missed something very important, or at least have failed to relay it. Why! And Lorenzo's attempt to copy other drummers, note for note, also shows a lack of understanding of what is happening.
When you are comping, you are in the moment. During a chorus you are reacting to what is happening around you, anticipating what is going to happen around you and setting up what is going to happen around you. You are not only accenting what the soloist is playing, but also conversing with the other musicians that are comping, playing figures to support and propel the music forward. A solo should build, so the intensity should also build. That has more to do with note placement than getting busy. The point to this rambling is that when playing jazz, you are in a changing landscape. What Philly Joe played, or Max, or Elvin, or anyone else played, is history. What is important is not what they did, but for a beginner, why they did what they did. Once you understand that, its time to move on. Trying to copy what these players did only moves you backward. Every time you play a tune you are starting from zero. How that tune progresses has to do with what is happening at that moment, not what someone did on a recording.
 

Lorenzo1950

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Well, I am not great at reading transcriptions but I would think it would be written note for note.
Philly Joe does not seem to repeat the same left hand pattern twice.
The only constant is his ride cymbal pattern.
It's not that I want to copy everything exactly like what I hear on record, more that I want to learn one passage of a song as close to the record as possible to understand his ideas better.
 

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nanashi said:
From the time this thread was posted, something has bothered me. Your transcription is good for showing what Philly Joe played but has missed something very important, or at least have failed to relay it. Why! And Lorenzo's attempt to copy other drummers, note for note, also shows a lack of understanding of what is happening.
When you are comping, you are in the moment. During a chorus you are reacting to what is happening around you, anticipating what is going to happen around you and setting up what is going to happen around you. You are not only accenting what the soloist is playing, but also conversing with the other musicians that are comping, playing figures to support and propel the music forward. A solo should build, so the intensity should also build. That has more to do with note placement than getting busy. The point to this rambling is that when playing jazz, you are in a changing landscape. What Philly Joe played, or Max, or Elvin, or anyone else played, is history. What is important is not what they did, but for a beginner, why they did what they did. Once you understand that, its time to move on. Trying to copy what these players did only moves you backward. Every time you play a tune you are starting from zero. How that tune progresses has to do with what is happening at that moment, not what someone did on a recording.
Imitation, assimilation, innovation.

Wanting to understand or even copying a renowned player's performance does not necessarily devalue or render null the more sublime aspects of these musical performances - unless it is a limitation you impose upon yourself.
 

adamosmianski

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phillyjoe1205 said:
As far as Philly Joe comping you may want to check out his work on the Miles Davis Quintet Recordings with Coltrane, Red Garland, and Paul Chambers. Those were late 50's. Relaxin', Cookin'. Steaming, and Workin'......these are pretty straight forward tunes/standards that are good to study his style..definitely check out Milestones if you haven't already. He was the man.....
Those are all great recordings! I pretty much consider them the definitive "straight ahead" records. Definitely the perfect introduction to Philly Joe. I chose the Sonny Clark record as it is one of my favorites and there seems to be less material out there about it.
 

adamosmianski

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nanashi said:
From the time this thread was posted, something has bothered me. Your transcription is good for showing what Philly Joe played but has missed something very important, or at least have failed to relay it. Why! And Lorenzo's attempt to copy other drummers, note for note, also shows a lack of understanding of what is happening.
When you are comping, you are in the moment. During a chorus you are reacting to what is happening around you, anticipating what is going to happen around you and setting up what is going to happen around you. You are not only accenting what the soloist is playing, but also conversing with the other musicians that are comping, playing figures to support and propel the music forward. A solo should build, so the intensity should also build. That has more to do with note placement than getting busy. The point to this rambling is that when playing jazz, you are in a changing landscape. What Philly Joe played, or Max, or Elvin, or anyone else played, is history. What is important is not what they did, but for a beginner, why they did what they did. Once you understand that, its time to move on. Trying to copy what these players did only moves you backward. Every time you play a tune you are starting from zero. How that tune progresses has to do with what is happening at that moment, not what someone did on a recording.
I see what you're saying, but I couldn't disagree more. Transcribing something note for note surely does not show a lack of understanding of what is happening. Trying to play those exact notes back in a live situation certainly would, but that's not at all what I'm suggesting. The idea is to play along with what Philly Joe is playing while listening to what is going on with the rest of the band. As you say, those notes are history. And how do we learn any subject? By understanding it's history! How else would you suggest that someone learn to react to what is happening around them, to anticipate what is going to happen, to set-up up what is happening around them, to converse with the other musicians, and play figures to support and move the music forward? I can't think of any better way to learn to do this than to study the greats! It certainly beats simply reading exercises from books or hoping that you'll just figure it out eventually. Scientists study Einstein, psychologists study Freud. They learn their history, build a foundation and then move forward. Why should we drummers be any different? I certainly can't see how it would move us backward.
 

adamosmianski

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zenghost said:
Imitation, assimilation, innovation.



Wanting to understand or even copying a renowned player's performance does not necessarily devalue or render null the more sublime aspects of these musical performances - unless it is a limitation you impose upon yourself.
Exactly!
 

phillyjoe1205

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adamosmianski said:
As far as Philly Joe comping you may want to check out his work on the Miles Davis Quintet Recordings with Coltrane, Red Garland, and Paul Chambers. Those were late 50's. Relaxin', Cookin'. Steaming, and Workin'......these are pretty straight forward tunes/standards that are good to study his style..definitely check out Milestones if you haven't already. He was the man.....
Those are all great recordings! I pretty much consider them the definitive "straight ahead" records. Definitely the perfect introduction to Philly Joe. I chose the Sonny Clark record as it is one of my favorites and there seems to be less material out there about it.
I also somehow forgot to mention another Philly Joe gem that along with the Miles Davis Relaxin' CD in my opinion is a great way to what he's hearing and that would be Wynton Kelly Kelly at Midnight. DEFINITELY a must have for Philly Joe fans if you haven't checked it out yet.

Another good way to get into Philly Joes mindset is to check out some of the Charles Wilcoxn solo books and exercises. He studied with him and was a big study of those rudimentary books and you can hear that in his soloing.

I had a teacher years ago that would have me go through my exercises but would have me pick one song a week to transcribe as well. I personally thought that it was a great exercise. It was making me excited about the drums and music in general and also gave me a tool that the next guy may not have giving me an edge. I'm positive though that the most important lesson that it gave me that I didn't realize at the time is that it taught me to LISTEN to the song.....not to hear the music but to really LISTEN to what was really happening within the song, what the bass player was playing, the feel that the song had that made it work, if the drummer was pushing the beat or on the back side, etc.....that's the most invaluable lesson that I've ever learned. It ultimately didn't really matter if I had the transcription completely right or not because through the process I had subconsciously learned all of the above and didn't need the transcription once I was done transcribing it. Am I making sense? The more you do it the more the listening becomes second nature like everything......

My thought is that if transcribing stuff is making you hear what he's doing better then by all means do it. It will only help you become a more rounded player. Emulating these players is part of the process we all go through in learning to play the different genres that interest us. Philly Joe did that as well but ultimately when he played he played what he FELT........sorry for the rant.
 

adamosmianski

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phillyjoe1205 said:
As far as Philly Joe comping you may want to check out his work on the Miles Davis Quintet Recordings with Coltrane, Red Garland, and Paul Chambers. Those were late 50's. Relaxin', Cookin'. Steaming, and Workin'......these are pretty straight forward tunes/standards that are good to study his style..definitely check out Milestones if you haven't already. He was the man.....
Those are all great recordings! I pretty much consider them the definitive "straight ahead" records. Definitely the perfect introduction to Philly Joe. I chose the Sonny Clark record as it is one of my favorites and there seems to be less material out there about it.
I also somehow forgot to mention another Philly Joe gem that along with the Miles Davis Relaxin' CD in my opinion is a great way to what he's hearing and that would be Wynton Kelly Kelly at Midnight. DEFINITELY a must have for Philly Joe fans if you haven't checked it out yet.

Another good way to get into Philly Joes mindset is to check out some of the Charles Wilcoxn solo books and exercises. He studied with him and was a big study of those rudimentary books and you can hear that in his soloing.

I had a teacher years ago that would have me go through my exercises but would have me pick one song a week to transcribe as well. I personally thought that it was a great exercise. It was making me excited about the drums and music in general and also gave me a tool that the next guy may not have giving me an edge. I'm positive though that the most important lesson that it gave me that I didn't realize at the time is that it taught me to LISTEN to the song.....not to hear the music but to really LISTEN to what was really happening within the song, what the bass player was playing, the feel that the song had that made it work, if the drummer was pushing the beat or on the back side, etc.....that's the most invaluable lesson that I've ever learned. It ultimately didn't really matter if I had the transcription completely right or not because through the process I had subconsciously learned all of the above and didn't need the transcription once I was done transcribing it. Am I making sense? The more you do it the more the listening becomes second nature like everything......

My thought is that if transcribing stuff is making you hear what he's doing better then by all means do it. It will only help you become a more rounded player. Emulating these players is part of the process we all go through in learning to play the different genres that interest us. Philly Joe did that as well but ultimately when he played he played what he FELT........sorry for the rant.




That's a killer record, although when it comes to Wynton Kelly, I like the Jimmy Cobb records a lot. We could list Philly Joe records all day. Don't forget some of those great Hank Mobley records, Art Pepper meets the Rhythm Section, Tadd Dameron, Elmo Hope. His discography is seemingly endless. I just did another transcription from the Serge Chaloff record he did. http://thatdrumblog.blogspot.com/2015/03/philly-joe-jones-how-about-you.html

Yeah, Wilcoxon is a must have for everybody. Philly Joe supposedly carried a copy of "Modern Rudimental Swing Solos" in his bag throughout his entire career and never went anywhere without it. I forget which record it's on, but he had a short solo at the top of a tune and he just played the first 8 bars of "Rolling in Rhythm". You're right it's a great resource for picking up soloing vocabulary. A good exercise is to play four bars of time, and four bars out of one of the solos. Because they are pre-composed they have a nice shape and conceptualized sound.

As far as transcribing goes, I'm a big fan of it, but it's important to have a balance. I make all my students do SOME transcribing, but I preach that it's equally, if not more, important to learn to play by ear. Just slowing down a record and writing it out bar by bar is OK, but isn't going to do much for you because you're not hearing the big picture. Listen to the whole thing first numerous times, sing it second, play it third, THEN write it down. And of course you can always just play along to the records without transcribing them. Learn to listen and react in your own way.
 

conorguilfoyle

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I also somehow forgot to mention another Philly Joe gem that along with the Miles Davis Relaxin' CD in my opinion is a great way to what he's hearing and that would be Wynton Kelly Kelly at Midnight. DEFINITELY a must have for Philly Joe fans if you haven't checked it out yet.

Another good way to get into Philly Joes mindset is to check out some of the Charles Wilcoxn solo books and exercises. He studied with him and was a big study of those rudimentary books and you can hear that in his soloing.

I had a teacher years ago that would have me go through my exercises but would have me pick one song a week to transcribe as well. I personally thought that it was a great exercise. It was making me excited about the drums and music in general and also gave me a tool that the next guy may not have giving me an edge. I'm positive though that the most important lesson that it gave me that I didn't realize at the time is that it taught me to LISTEN to the song.....not to hear the music but to really LISTEN to what was really happening within the song, what the bass player was playing, the feel that the song had that made it work, if the drummer was pushing the beat or on the back side, etc.....that's the most invaluable lesson that I've ever learned. It ultimately didn't really matter if I had the transcription completely right or not because through the process I had subconsciously learned all of the above and didn't need the transcription once I was done transcribing it. Am I making sense? The more you do it the more the listening becomes second nature like everything......

My thought is that if transcribing stuff is making you hear what he's doing better then by all means do it. It will only help you become a more rounded player. Emulating these players is part of the process we all go through in learning to play the different genres that interest us. Philly Joe did that as well but ultimately when he played he played what he FELT........sorry for the rant.




That's a killer record, although when it comes to Wynton Kelly, I like the Jimmy Cobb records a lot. We could list Philly Joe records all day. Don't forget some of those great Hank Mobley records, Art Pepper meets the Rhythm Section, Tadd Dameron, Elmo Hope. His discography is seemingly endless. I just did another transcription from the Serge Chaloff record he did. http://thatdrumblog.blogspot.com/2015/03/philly-joe-jones-how-about-you.html

Yeah, Wilcoxon is a must have for everybody. Philly Joe supposedly carried a copy of "Modern Rudimental Swing Solos" in his bag throughout his entire career and never went anywhere without it. I forget which record it's on, but he had a short solo at the top of a tune and he just played the first 8 bars of "Rolling in Rhythm". You're right it's a great resource for picking up soloing vocabulary. A good exercise is to play four bars of time, and four bars out of one of the solos. Because they are pre-composed they have a nice shape and conceptualized sound.

As far as transcribing goes, I'm a big fan of it, but it's important to have a balance. I make all my students do SOME transcribing, but I preach that it's equally, if not more, important to learn to play by ear. Just slowing down a record and writing it out bar by bar is OK, but isn't going to do much for you because you're not hearing the big picture. Listen to the whole thing first numerous times, sing it second, play it third, THEN write it down. And of course you can always just play along to the records without transcribing them. Learn to listen and react in your own way.
The recording that PJJ plays the 8 bars of rolling in rhythm is Trailways express. Great record
 


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