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Philly Joe Jones Cymbal Setup with Miles

poetman

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So I’m listening to Diane from Miles’ Steamin album, and Philly is playing his infamous 20” K (the one on that made the social media/Memphis drum shop rounds not to long ago), and then for Trane’s solo, he moves to his LSR, and I’m wondering if it’s an 18”. I suppose there’s no way of confidently knowing, but I’m curious what others think about the sound of the ride under Trane’s solo.


 

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Sinclair

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Well, it's higher pitched and has a narrower sound than I hear in the 20, so I'd guess it's an 18" as well. Not too heavy or I'd expect to hear a clang to it. He's playing it with a light touch too.
He then goes back to the 20 for Red Garland's solo but plays quarter notes on the snare along with it. Something you don't hear guys do that much any more.
He's a master at blending his sound and it gives the ride a different edge. Almost like a third ride. Very cool. Always learning from these guys.
 

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Well, it's higher pitched and has a narrower sound than I hear in the 20, so I'd guess it's an 18" as well. Not too heavy or I'd expect to hear a clang to it. He's playing it with a light touch too.
He then goes back to the 20 for Red Garland's solo but plays quarter notes on the snare along with it. Something you don't hear guys do that much any more.
He's a master at blending his sound and it gives the ride a different edge. Almost like a third ride. Very cool. Always learning from these guys.
Great analysis, hadn’t really paid attention to that 4 beat snare before
 

Seb77

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Here's my post from an earlier version of this thread:

Short version: I think the cymbal behind the sax solo could be the 20" from the John Riley clip.

Long version:

To my ear, the cymbal from the John Riley video can be heard here, behind the solos as well as with the bell hits in the intro (14s in) as well. It has a characteristic low pitch.


There were two dates the recordings of these final Prestige sessions were made. "If I were a Bell" is from the later one, on October 26, 1956: http://www.plosin.com/MilesAhead/Sessions.aspx?s=561026
A quick scan of other tracks from Relaxin' (If I were a Bell, Oleo), and it sounds like he used only one ride and hats on this session.
From the same day, again, I only hear one "top cymbal":


"Diane" was recorded earlier, on May 11, 1956.
Slightly different mix/mic'ing...and cymbals? To my ear, if anything, the cymbal behind the sax solo sounds closer to the "Bell" cymbal, and to the one in the John Riley clip, than the one behind Miles' solo, and the piano solo as well, which sounds higher pitched/more sizzling (more/heavier rivets?).
 

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At that May 56 session, he seems to use have used one cymbal behind trumpet and piano, and another one behind the sax. On this track, they trade 4s for a chorus, where he uses the "sax" cymbal behind the trumpet for once:

Same choices for tp, sax, piano:

From the October session, the same cymbal throughout (compare to the John Riley video). Love the 4s!
 

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long ago I spent an afternoon with Gretsch legend,Duke Kramer...he regaled me with stories about many of the Gretsch greats.
his story on Philly Joe was most surprising/illuminating...Philly often contacted Duke saying he needed to stop by the factory and pick out some new K's.
of course Duke would say by all means so Philly would come and pick some out.a few months would go by and Philly would call Duke with the same request.
Duke would oblige.This went on many times.Finally Mr Kramer had to put an end to Philly's practice...it was discovered he would pawn those K's when money was tight and Philly needed to score...Gretsch changed their policy regarding artists taking cymbals as a result...no more freebies.
FWIW Duke Kramer was there when the Gretsch Drum Night @ Birdland was recorded...all the cats hung out at his table during intermissions.
 

Rick

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So I’m listening to Diane from Miles’ Steamin album, and Philly is playing his infamous 20” K (the one on that made the social media/Memphis drum shop rounds not to long ago), and then for Trane’s solo, he moves to his LSR, and I’m wondering if it’s an 18”. I suppose there’s no way of confidently knowing, but I’m curious what others think about the sound of the ride under Trane’s solo.


Did they have 19's back then? The reason I ask is that I think it sounds a lot like a 19" Avedis that I recently acquired and installed a couple of Bosphorus rivets. Here's a demo video I did on the cymbal. To my ear, I'm hearing a lot of similarities to the cymbal you're asking about during Trane's solo...

 

zenstat

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Did they have 19's back then? The reason I ask is that I think it sounds a lot like a 19" Avedis that I recently acquired and installed a couple of Bosphorus rivets. Here's a demo video I did on the cymbal. To my ear, I'm hearing a lot of similarities to the cymbal you're asking about during Trane's solo...

Yes they had 19" Zildjian cymbals back then, both A Zildjian and K Zildjian Istanbul. The 20" and 18" diameters are much more common than 19" for both A and Istanbul K, so if you are playing probabilities it is more likely to be an 18" than a 19". But it is what it is. :dontknow:
 

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I wonder if Philly Joe played on "Compulsion" and "So What" ? The cymbals sound great in those songs!
 

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Seb77

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Thanks for the information. Here is a clip of "So what" done live...who is the drummer?
That's Jimmy Cobb. Session details, April 2, 1959:
"Cannonball Adderley missed this date because of a migraine headache, which may explain why Davis solos twice on "So What," both before and after Coltrane"

Just one month after the original studio date, March 2, 1959:

and before the second Kind of Blue session, April 22:
 

jmoll

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Yes they had 19" Zildjian cymbals back then, both A Zildjian and K Zildjian Istanbul. The 20" and 18" diameters are much more common than 19" for both A and Istanbul K, so if you are playing probabilities it is more likely to be an 18" than a 19". But it is what it is. :dontknow:
I thought that K's weren't offered in the 19" diameter, but I've just looked to a 50's Gretsch catalog and yes they were. I have a 50's K that is exactly 18'5" and I've always thought that was a "bigger" 18". Maybe I will have to call it 19" knowing that they are undersized most of the times.
 

zenstat

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I thought that K's weren't offered in the 19" diameter, but I've just looked to a 50's Gretsch catalog and yes they were. I have a 50's K that is exactly 18'5" and I've always thought that was a "bigger" 18". Maybe I will have to call it 19" knowing that they are undersized most of the times.

Yes Istanbul Ks do present a problem because they are usually a little undersized. But is 18.2" slightly oversized and should that information always be preserved? We don't really have a consistent way of reporting. I normally round to the nearest inch but when a cymbal is exactly 18.50" it is a bit of a toss up which way to round. I tend to go up, even through I am aware that early on (1922 catalog) Ludwig offered them in half inch increments


and in the New Stamp period there is the occasional K Istanbul cymbal with diameter ink still there, and the diameter is shown. Here is an 18" which weighs 1504g which has ink giving the diameter in inches and metric as 18" 45 1/2 cm. That might be a smudged MEDIUM under the diameter info.

Screen Shot 2022-11-21 at 8.23.44 AM.png


Was the factory making them in half inch increments? Did they have that level of accuracy? Or was somebody just sorting a pile of cymbals into half inch groupings to fill orders? Was the factory targeting metric diameters and going for the closest inch equivalent? :dontknow: When somebody does report a diameter measurement to more accuracy then one inch I do keep that info in a separate database field, but that doesn't happen often enough to get a consistent picture of the real distribution in full inch reporting diameters versus actual diameters.
 

mtarrani

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Back to 19" rides (and crash/rides): I would love to know the era of one of Armand's favorite cymbals upon which the modern Armand "Beautiful Baby" was based.
 

zenstat

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Back to 19" rides (and crash/rides): I would love to know the era of one of Armand's favorite cymbals upon which the modern Armand "Beautiful Baby" was based.

Paul Francis has given a few hints. Armand started from what is most likely a Trans Stamp and told the team he wanted then to reproduce that sound but to do it more consistently from cymbal to cymbal. That challenge also formed the background to the A Zidjian & Cie Vintage series. I'll have to do a lot of traceback in my notes to pin down the exact quote. Something I was going to do to produce the wiki page for that specific model when I get to it. The closest I've got to that model is 19" and 1780g and has 4 very light pop rivets equally spaced well in from the edge. It has the ALEJIAN stamp and on production clues is from the Trans Stamp era. This one shown on my site in fact, and if you look really closely at the picture you can see a rivet in the lower right. I had a real Beautiful Baby on the stand for a short time so I could A/B them and I liked the modern Beautiful Baby better. But this one is still nice. A little harsh and "caw" stick sound on its own, but nice in a musical context.


alejian-stamp.jpg
 
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mtarrani

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Paul Francis has given a few hints. Armand started from what is most likely a Trans Stamp and told the team he wanted then to reproduce that sound but to do it more consistently from cymbal to cymbal. That challenge also formed the background to the A Zidjian & Cie series. I'll have to do a lot of traceback in my notes to pin down the exact quote. Something I was going to do to produce the wiki page for that specific model when I get to it. The closest I've got to that model is 19" and 1780g and has 6 very light pop rivets equally spaced well in from the edge. It has the ALEJIAN stamp and on production clues is from the Trans Stamp era. This one shown on my site in fact, and if you look really closely at the picture you can see a rivet in the lower right. I had a real Beautiful Baby on the stand for a short time so I could A/B them and I liked the modern Beautiful Baby better. But this one is still nice. A little harsh and "caw" stick sound on its own, but nice in a musical context.


View attachment 593565
I recall Paul Francis discussing that, but my recollection was he was talking about the Cie "Vintage" family. I believe it was an interview with a Brit music store owner. I am sure, too, that he has probably recounted similar stories in multiple interviews. I know he and John Riley did a lot of video discussions and interviews together as well.

EDITED TO INCLUDE: the Armand (and the Take Five Reissue) both have a Large Stamp vibe to me. The 20" Cie "Vintage" that I traded to long ago does sound like a trans stamp to my ears. I would have not caught that when I owned the Cie "Vintage", but have accumulated a few trans stamps this year and they have their own, unique sound (to my ears).
 

zenstat

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I recall Paul Francis discussing that, but my recollection was he was talking about the Cie "Vintage" family. I believe it was an interview with a Brit music store owner. I am sure, too, that he has probably recounted similar stories in multiple interviews. I know he and John Riley did a lot of video discussions and interviews together as well.

EDITED TO INCLUDE: the Armand (and the Take Five Reissue) both have a Large Stamp vibe to me. The 20" Cie "Vintage" that I traded to long ago does sound like a trans stamp to my ears. I would have not caught that when I owned the Cie "Vintage", but have accumulated a few trans stamps this year and they have their own, unique sound (to my ears).

Typo. I left the Vintage off A & Cie Vintage. Thanks for spotting that.

Yes there are lots of discussions at different times and places which cover the territory. When I rediscovered the Drum addicts interviews


I noticed that in one of them they mention that Paul's visit to the UK was one of those Zildjian tours so it would have had several stops and possibly several videos from other UK drum shops. In addition to the discussions with John Riley there is another place or two where I'll just have a look...
 


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