Piccolo Snares In Jazz

JimmySticks

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Yes, very definately.
I picked a 13x3 for my Ludwig kit because I was looking for a lighter sound. I was interested in playing Jazz and I didn't want something that "dominated" the room.
...and I got it right, too....

View attachment 448933

...with a 14x5, you can get a "pop" sound. With a 13x3, you get a "pap" sound. Say it. See the difference?
Its not something you can imitate with a 14x4 or even a 14x3, because while you attain the same depth, the larger diameter makes the drum want to naturally speak in a slightly lower note range.
Its a higher pitch, too, so it can add some brightness, but I enjoy that lighter sound.
Brushes take a little getting used to, but its not a major obstacle. You'll probably acclimate quicker than you think you will.
One thing I have found out, in the years since I got that kit, is that it doesn't make any difference in how sensitive the drum is.
You can play a 13x3 or a 14x10, if you set them up right, they'll both be just as sensitive.
So go ahead and snag that piccolo snare drum! I think you'll enjoy it a lot.
Good luck. =)

Elvis
Man, I love that Ludwig! She's a real beauty.

I like your "pap" analogy, it makes sense. For sure I would look for a 13x3 because I really consider that size to be a true piccolo. I'm guessing mahogany is also the way to go to provide some warmth to the sound.

Great post! :)
 

JimmySticks

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I used to play one of these one hundred dollar Guitar Center special Remo Mastertouch piccolo snares. They were very common in the late '90s and Guitar Center always had them on sale for about $79-$99. I used them in jazz combos and when I played in the university big band. It was a perfect snare sound for any jazz situation.

I sometimes see them used for about the same price now as when they were new. I had a Remo Mastertouch kit at the time, so when I sold the kit, the snare went with it. It was an excellent drum for the price. I wouldn't need one today, but I also wouldn't hesitate to use one on a gig if it were around.

Thanks for the review on these Remo piccolo's. I've seen these for sale quite often, and for good prices, but I had no idea how they sounded.
 

JimmySticks

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Oh man. I love Roy and Trane. Is he using a 4x14 on this? Maybe red sparkle.
My kit is a red sparkle, and I cannot find a red sparkle piccolo to match anywhere! I don't believe they exist actually.

I'm not a purist on matching, but I wouldn't mind if it did match.
 

Ickybaby

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Just a reminder. There is no set equipment for Jazz. Anything and everything has been played. Jazz is a feel/style not a gear.
This 1000%.…. And it goes for ANY music genre. There is no specific tool that must be limited to a certain niche. An artist uses whatever they desire, whenever they desire.
 

JimmySticks

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This 1000%.…. And it goes for ANY music genre. There is no specific tool that must be limited to a certain niche. An artist uses whatever they desire, whenever they desire.
Thanks for reminding me of that post by nolibos! I meant to respond positively to it, but the posts piled up quickly and I forgot.

And I agree, it's part of finding your own unique sound. We don't all play alike and our gear doesn't all have to be alike either, so yeah, I'm with you. Thanks!
 

JDA

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shallow drum --short depth- you're going to get a short and wide sound

small diameter (10,12) with a more depth (5) long and narrow sound
4 x14 = 18

5 x12 = 17
 

JimmySticks

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shallow drum --short depth- you're going to get a short and wide sound

small diameter (10,12) with a more depth (5) long and narrow sound
4 x14 = 18

5 x12 = 17
I get what you mean by shallow drum, short and wide and small diameter, more depth a longer and narrower sound, but what does the numbers in your equations mean? (sorry, math is not my thing... :scratch: )
 

JDA

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math is not my thing
it's math from dummies/ or (drummers...

Add the depth and diameter to get volume ( not decibel volume- but volume as in space?)
Volume (internal) of the cylinder

8x12 = 20
6.5 x 14= 20.5

so there's similar volume( volume as in capacity not decibel)

14x18 -32
16x18-34
14x20-34
add depth + diameter

do that across your set to see where the similarities and larger differences exist
 
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JDA

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irregardless of diameter I've never found -in my own use, a lot of use for shallow (2,3,4 inch) drums. 5 inch is about as shallow as I can use.
Love the 5 x 12 Stage custom I own; adore my 5.5 x 14 RB snares.

Shallow doesn't give me enough; can't be bothered
Had a wood 3 x 13 Dixon it functioned well but somehow I sold it.
Keep and have done some casuals with a wood 4 x 14 Lp Ascend just to remind me what a shallow drum is

works opposite too. Have a couple 6.5 x 14 snare and yes they're great with a certain set of drums; Thought about and tried an 8 x 14 snare; pretty sure myself I will/ can live with out and don't won't desire.
Too deep a snare gets to sounding funny to me (lol) like a field/parade/march/
 
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JimmySticks

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irregardless of diameter I've never found -in my own use, a lot of use for shallow (2,3,4 inch) drums. 5 inch is about as shallow as I can use.
Love the 5 x 12 Stage custom I own; adore my 5.5 x 14 RB snares.

Shallow doesn't give me enough; can't be bothered
Had a wood 3 x 13 Dixon it functioned well but somehow I sold it.
Keep and have done some casuals with a wood 4 x 14 Lp Ascend just to remind me what a shallow drum is

works opposite too. Have a couple 6.5 x 14 snare and yes they're great with a certain set of drums; Thought about and tried an 8 x 14 snare; pretty sure myself I will/ can live with out and don't won't desire.
Too deep a snare gets to sounding funny to me (lol) like a field/march/
That's a good honest answer and I'm sure a lot of guys agree.

I play a kit matching 5x14 snare on a normal basis, and I have a cheapo ($18 eBay!) but surprisingly nice sounding Taiwan made Yamaha 4x13 steel snare, which could be considered a piccolo, and I really like where the sound on that is going but it's not quite there, so I think a 3x13 would really be where I'd like to be.
 

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JimmySticks

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yeah that 3 x 13 wood Dixon (look-alike DW lugs (were they plastic? close call..) was nice to pound.

Guess it was a 3.5..


^ guess they still make em

most beat to sheeet now v
Pretty nice sound for the money, but it doesn't quite have that "firecracker" piccolo sound...and those lugs, not a fan :wacko:
 

Swissward Flamtacles

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Add the depth and diameter to get volume ( not decibel volume- but volume as in space?)
Volume (internal) of the cylinder
8x12 = 20
6.5 x 14= 20.5
so there's similar volume( volume as in capacity not decibel)
Sorry, but what? V = A * h = 3.14 * r² * h
So 905 in³ and 1001 in³
 

JDA

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but it doesn't quite have that "firecracker" piccolo sound..
See that's where what I'm talking about. Shallow is more a regular snare sound. When you go smaller Diameter but deeper depth; you get the popcorn/hip hop/ sound. 5 X 12. Deeper but smaller head =


 

drummingbulldog

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Marvin Smitty Smith played a 4x14 bronze snare & it comes to mind as one of the best tones I recall. I have a 4x14 Gretsch USA that screams. So much snap, crackle & pop you'll think you ate rice crispies. For that clean & short note I like that size. Btw, I used to own a Pearl ffs with maple & brass shells. I sold it and bought the Gretsch. A 5.5x13 also tuned high gets a lovely pop.
 
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I don't know what is technically a piccolo snare and what isn't. But here are a few of my opinions. And a list of guys that I know that have played 4x14" snares.

I love 4x14 (or 4.5x14) snares for jazz and have quite a few. Great for brushes, you can leave them wide open, and not have to worry about them getting away from you with sticks, nice cross stick sound. You can tune them down a bit, and get a nice throaty (without being "loud") sound, and if you play rimshot they seen to be more balanced with the "natural" snare sound (to me.) As I said I love them. However, I also love 8" snares for jazz too, because of their wonderful snares off sound (they sound like a tom, instead of a timbale.)

I would never use a 13" snare for jazz. I have never played any 13 snare that I could get a nice cross stick sound from, and playing brushes on a 13 would probably feel really weird. But that's just me.

As originally linked, Peter Erskine had Yamaha build him a 4" signature in Birch (I have and love that one,) he had DW build him a 4" snare too.

Jeff Watts has a 4" Sonor that he plays A LOT, and it sounds great!!!!

Those old pix of Roy (that are included in this thread,) have him playing one of those old Ludwig's (what were they called?) I have one of those too. Great drum that I used for years, and then the lugs started to twist a bit, so now it gets babied a bit. I'm not sure if Roy is playing that drum on the Trane clip. Roy's snare on that records sounds much brighter than this Ludwig 4's.

Papa Jo had an infamous 4" Black Beauty that he played, and it wound up in Billy Cobham's possession, and then John Riley's, and then Dennis Chambers'. John also had a 4" Yamaha that he used for a long time (maybe influenced by the BB.)

As pictured Max's "signature drums" was a Gretsch 4" (but the included picture in this thread doesn't look like the Max Signature to me, I could be wrong though.) I still have yet to see a clear picture of Max playing his sig Gretsch (but the one in this thread MIGHT be the one picture, I can't tell.)

Marvin "Smitty" Smith had a signature 4" Copper that he actually played, and it sounded really good too. I have also seen Jack DeJohnette use a 4" Sonor Bronze a few times too.

One of the "Buddy gear nuts" with tell you about Buddy using a 4" (I forget which brand, Slingerland?)

I contend that part of the 4" drum craze in the studios in the 90's was the fact that Drum Paradise has a 4" Lang, that everyone (Vinnie, JR, Keltner, Erskine, etc...) rented, fell in LOVE with, and tried to have their companies replicate. Larrie Londin also had two 4" that he LOVED (4x15 and a 4x14 old Ludwig two piece NOB or BB's.) But that's not jazz.

Ironically, I have a bunch of 4 and 4.5 snares that I love, and a whole lot of 6.5's that I love. I even have a few 7's and 8's that I love. But except for my vintage 5" Black Beauty, and my Yamaha Copper, and Bamboo, I don't own a bunch of 5" or 5.5 snares that I LOVE (and I have a few.)

IMG_1169.jpg


But again, that's just me! That's what Joe is referring to as "finding YOUR voice."

Hope that helps!
MSG
 

Elvis

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it's math from dummies/ or (drummers...

Add the depth and diameter to get volume ( not decibel volume- but volume as in space?)
Volume (internal) of the cylinder

8x12 = 20
6.5 x 14= 20.5

so there's similar volume( volume as in capacity not decibel)

14x18 -32
16x18-34
14x20-34
add depth + diameter

do that across your set to see where the similarities and larger differences exist
What I've "discovered" is similar to what you say....small tom is 37%-42% of the volume of the floor tom, which is 60% of the volume of the bass drum.
Suspicion is high that this is the "magic" formula for setting up sizes for a kit.
Pi (R squared) Height.....that's how I learned it.
 
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Elvis

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yeah that 3 x 13 wood Dixon (look-alike DW lugs (were they plastic? close call..) was nice to pound.

Guess it was a 3.5..


^ guess they still make em

most beat to sheeet now v
I remember those were offered by...St.Louis Music? $69.99 could get you into a brand spankin' new one, back in '99. ;)
 


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