Please help me identify this Ludwig snare

dsteinschneider

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I've been asked to identify this snare and figure out roughly what it's worth. It is a part of a collection of instruments purchased 10 years ago but never played. Some of it is high end but also a fair amount of budget equipment.

Thank in advance for any comments!

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Santino

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Appears to be a "B Stock" Black Beauty. Cut B/O badge usually means the shell may have a slight defect and didn't make the cut. (I've seen these and couldn't find the defect)
 

bellbrass

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Unless I'm mistaken, it's a cut-badge Black Beauty. Ludwig used to sell their b-stock drums with this badge. They cut the badge to denote that there was a cosmetic flaw that made it unsuitable for sale as a premium item, but eligible for sale at a discount. I forgot what the discount usually was; maybe 30%. So, my vote is a B-Stock Black Beauty.
It's value on the used market depends also on what kind of shape the rest of the drum is in...as in scratches to the finish, rust and/or pitting, dents, etc. Also important: whether or not the snare strainer mechanism works properly or not. If it has none of those issues, I'd say it's worth $400-$500.
 

Commodore

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The badges were cut to fit the shell. There's not room for a whole badge on Acrolite models because of the center rib...
 

zenstat

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The badges were cut to fit the shell. There's not room for a whole badge on Acrolite models because of the center rib...
That is a B-stock cut badge. You are thinking of the cut badges at the time when the Blue Olive badges first came into use. The existing stock of shells had already been drilled for the keystone badge and the center bead got in the way. I told Ludwig that the use of cut badges on B-stock would create confusion later on, but I take no pleasure in saying "I told you so". :wink:

The difference is in the little ® above the G of Ludwig. You can see that in the picture which started this tread. The early 1970s cut badges don't have the ®. I've got a nice Supra date stamped Dec 19, 1969 which has that cut badge.
 

Commodore

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That is a B-stock cut badge. You are thinking of the cut badges at the time when the Blue Olive badges first came into use. The existing stock of shells had already been drilled for the keystone badge and the center bead got in the way. I told Ludwig that the use of cut badges on B-stock would create confusion later on, but I take no pleasure in saying "I told you so". :wink:

The difference is in the little ® above the G of Ludwig. You can see that in the picture which started this tread. The early 1970s cut badges don't have the ®. I've got a nice Supra date stamped Dec 19, 1969 which has that cut badge.
I live 30 miles from the factory. so I'll ask. The badge goes on before the rest of the shell is assembled. Do you mean they plan for it to be a "B" stock? I always thought "B" stock was a flaw developed during manufacturing. I know they do give 10% off in the factory outlet/showroom for minor flaws...
 

zenstat

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I live 30 miles from the factory. so I'll ask. The badge goes on before the rest of the shell is assembled. Do you mean they plan for it to be a "B" stock? I always thought "B" stock was a flaw developed during manufacturing. I know they do give 10% off in the factory outlet/showroom for minor flaws...
I can't peer into the minds of Ludwig personnel. I'm just telling you there are two distinct "cut badges". One is from the early 70s and had nothing to do with B-stock. The other is much more recent when the marketing idea of B-stock was rolled out and used a different Blue/Olive "cut badge" with an ®. If you visit you could ask them. I can't remember exactly when the B-stock metal snares appeared, but from memory it was before they brought back the Blue/Olive badge on some kits. It would be nice to get their recollection of the when and why.
 
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JazzDrumGuy

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The "R" is modern era but I like to see a P85. I agree with the others that it is a modern BB. What is the butt plate? Columbus Percussion has a new 6.5x14 B stock for $590 on Reverb. I love the B/O badge btw....
 
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K.O.

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I live 30 miles from the factory. so I'll ask. The badge goes on before the rest of the shell is assembled. Do you mean they plan for it to be a "B" stock? I always thought "B" stock was a flaw developed during manufacturing. I know they do give 10% off in the factory outlet/showroom for minor flaws...
They don't manufacture or plate the metal shells, that has always been farmed out (at least since the early 1960s) so I'd assume they inspect them all when they come in and any that have some minor flaw they know is going to have to be sold as a B-stock drum. In most instances the flaw is some tiny fly speck imperfection in the plating, that is if the end-user can find anything at all.

There was no B-stock back in the day, not because every drum was perfect (far from it) but because people were more willing to accept whatever they got, within reason. Times have changed and Ludwig no doubt weighed their options before arriving at the B-stock idea. They could sell it at full price and cross their fingers that nobody noticed the tiny flaw but run the risk that if the new owner finds it to be unsatisfactory there will be a return process (costing them money) and the potential chance that the unsatisfied customer may post about the issue all over the internet, sullying the brand's reputation. They could scrap those shells or possibly have them replated, neither seems an economical choice, or they could finish them off but sell them in a fashion that insures the customer acknowledges that there is some sort of tiny flaw in the drum and is willing to accept that in return for a lower price. That is the option they chose and the cut B/O badge was the way they differentiated these drums from the "A-stock" full priced ones. This identifying difference lets folks on the secondary market know what they are buying....assuming they know all this stuff. Probably a lot of folks don't know about all this but a small amount of research (or a query on a Drum Forum) should clue them in.

I always assumed that if I were buying a BB that I'd opt for one of the B-stock models because pretty much everyone that has is quite happy with the purchase. The flaw(s) (or at least the ones they manage to find) are generally tiny and on the inside of the drum (I'd assume the company that makes and/or plates the shells has their own QC standards that their output has to meet before they ship it on to Ludwig, so any truly defective example gets shunted out of the production loop before Ludwig even sees it). As it turned out I ended up with two 1970s BBs so I don't need a newer one. I've never gone over my Chicago made examples with a fine toothed comb but if I did I wouldn't be surprised to turn up some minor issue that would have relegated them to B-stock status were they made today. People weren't quite so fussy back then.
 

JazzDrumGuy

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I have seen a few B stock in person. Without taking off heads and inspecting every inch of them, they looked just fine and played and sounded right.
 

bellbrass

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I will say this: years ago, in the early 2000s, I purchased a few Black Beauties from a major online retailer. All had to go back with flaws. Over a period of a year or so, I had a 5" and two 6.5" BBs, and each one had finish issues - mainly with the clear lacquer outer coat. I gave up on trying to get one without flaws. Years later, a 5-Star dealer told me that Ludwig sent all of their "B-stock" to that chain to sell as new. It became so unmanageable for them to handle the returns that Ludwig had to begin the "B-stock" program. I was also told that the flawed B-stock drums were initially re-badged; the larger cut B/O badge was used to cover up the marks left by de-badging the Keystone badge. Then they began using the cut B/O badge at the factory for flawed drums. I have no idea if this is true, but it's what I was told.
 

K.O.

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I will say this: years ago, in the early 2000s, I purchased a few Black Beauties from a major online retailer. All had to go back with flaws. Over a period of a year or so, I had a 5" and two 6.5" BBs, and each one had finish issues - mainly with the clear lacquer outer coat. I gave up on trying to get one without flaws. Years later, a 5-Star dealer told me that Ludwig sent all of their "B-stock" to that chain to sell as new. It became so unmanageable for them to handle the returns that Ludwig had to begin the "B-stock" program. I was also told that the flawed B-stock drums were initially re-badged; the larger cut B/O badge was used to cover up the marks left by de-badging the Keystone badge. Then they began using the cut B/O badge at the factory for flawed drums. I have no idea if this is true, but it's what I was told.
Sounds reasonable...
 

dsteinschneider

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Thank you for all the detail - I would never have imagined there was this much of a backstory regarding the snare. The anomaly on this end is everything else is brand new (but purchased 10 years ago) in the case or box. This snare was stored in a thick plastic bag. It looks brand new through. I'm going to take more close up photos of it - will try to find any flaws.
 


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