Poll: Are you a Buddy Rich fan? Yes or No

[dcrigger]

You know in lots of circles, the guys that taped and released this are considered nothing more than weenies. "Oh boo hoo, the old man said mean things to you... " So many folks that have never been through it, simply don't get this tried and true big league process at all... but that's been discussed here before.

And then of course, there's the whole "What Happens On the Bus, Stays on the Bus" issue - which many will scoff, but is a big deal with touring guys. A really big deal.

Weenies!

 

[Matched Gripper]

You know in lots of circles, the guys that taped and released this are considered nothing more than weenies. "Oh boo hoo, the old man said mean things to you... " So many folks that have never been through it, simply don't get this tried and true big league process at all... but that's been discussed here before.

And then of course, there's the whole "What Happens On the Bus, Stays on the Bus" issue - which many will scoff, but is a big deal with touring guys. A really big deal.

Weenies!

I think it goes with the territory that a conductor or leader of a large orchestra or big band is going to be a bit of a drill sergeant. I’ve played in a symphonic band and a big band in which players were yelled at during rehearsals all the time for various reasons. Imagine an 80+ year old grandma french horn player getting yelled at for talking while the conductor was giving direction. She didn’t bat an eye. They have to rule with a bit of an iron fist to keep discipline with such large bands.

 

[m.clover]

My teacher, the great Jimmy Girone, instructed me using a book called the Buddy Rich Method. Needless to say I' was, am and will always be a fan.

 

[Slingwig26]

Just wanted to get an idea of how much of the DFO population are BR fans and how many are not. I expect there will be more fans than not, but at the same time I think there are more who are not than expected.

The back story to this can be found on another thread but for now it’s just a poll.

I know that for many of you this is a ridiculous question but maybe we can learn something from it.

Yes, I am a fan.

 

[dale w miller]

You know in lots of circles, the guys that taped and released this are considered nothing more than weenies. "Oh boo hoo, the old man said mean things to you... " So many folks that have never been through it, simply don't get this tried and true big league process at all... but that's been discussed here before.

And then of course, there's the whole "What Happens On the Bus, Stays on the Bus" issue - which many will scoff, but is a big deal with touring guys. A really big deal.

Weenies!

I think it goes with the territory that a conductor or leader of a large orchestra or big band is going to be a bit of a drill sergeant. I’ve played in a symphonic band and a big band in which players were yelled at during rehearsals all the time for various reasons. Imagine an 80+ year old grandma french horn player getting yelled at for talking while the conductor was giving direction. She didn’t bat an eye. They have to rule with a bit of an iron fist to keep discipline with such large bands.

I can’t believe you guys are defending this behavior. You would have to be paying me at least a few hundred thousand dollars a year to put up with that.

I have been in a situation where the leader mislead the comfort and accommodations of the tour be it the size of the vehicle or sleeping arrangements. Even with the modest pay I agreed to, I was still chasing him for money.

Perhaps it was the stress of money, but one day he flipped on me about a particular performance. Even though we were in LA at that point of the tour and I lived in Brooklyn at the time, I immediately quit right then & there. I shipped my gear back, stayed at a friend’s for a few days and then flew home.

I can put up with a lot, but there is no way I’m putting up with being talked down to and yelled.

 

[JimmySticks]

I can’t believe you guys are defending this behavior. You would have to be paying me at least a few hundred thousand dollars a year to put up with that.

I have been in a situation where the leader mislead the comfort and accommodations of the tour be it the size of the vehicle or sleeping arrangements. Even with the modest pay I agreed to, I was still chasing him for money.

Perhaps it was the stress of money, but one day he flipped on me about a particular performance. Even though we were in LA at that point of the tour and I lived in Brooklyn at the time, I immediately quit right then & there. I shipped my gear back, stayed at a friend’s for a few days and then flew home.

I can put up with a lot, but there is no way I’m putting up with being talked down to and yelled.

Im not sure how old you are Dale, but things were different BITD. We as a people, were a tougher bunch and we put up with a lot more from bosses and those in charge.

As I said in another post, the typical New Yorker wouldn’t have blinked an eye at Buddy’s behavior, because we were all like him to some degree. I’m not sure what years you lived in Brooklyn but the Brooklyn of the 60s to the 90s is not the Brooklyn of today, not by a long shot! I started in NYC construction in 83, and I can tell you it was rough and tough and if you couldn’t handle the screaming and yelling and maybe worse, you were out. It’s just the way it was and it was accepted. Of course, we have softened up over the years, which I guess is a good thing, but I do sort of miss the grit and toughness of those good ol days!

 

[JDA]

"tell us about the good old days mr. jimmy!!

 

[drumaniac]

Votes can be changed if anyone changes their mind.

IMO yes or no was fine

 

[JDA]

someone left the cake out in the rain

 

[CSR]

If you’re going to be a snowflake if the bandleader yells at you, then you certainly have the right to pack up and go home. The education you got by playing with Buddy was worth more than $100,000. These are kids right out of college throwing clams during the 2 hours every day they were working for Buddy. Once or twice, if you were giving 100%, was forgiven...continued clams and lazy, entitled attitude when it affected the band’s reputation was not. Not everyone should get a trophy for “participating”. You don’t want the job? Ten other guys are dying to take it.

 

[LouPLant]

I think it goes with the territory that a conductor or leader of a large orchestra or big band is going to be a bit of a drill sergeant. I’ve played in a symphonic band and a big band in which players were yelled at during rehearsals all the time for various reasons. Imagine an 80+ year old grandma french horn player getting yelled at for talking while the conductor was giving direction. She didn’t bat an eye. They have to rule with a bit of an iron fist to keep discipline with such large bands.

And they do regret them getting out:

The Buddy Rich Tapes - JazzTimes

What kind of playing do you think this is? What kind of miscues do you call this? What fuckin’ band do you think you’re playing on, MOTHERFUCKERS! You wanna fuck with me on the bandstand?! The voice is concussively powerful, an imposing white-hot blast of verbiage to rival that of Ralph Kramden...

jazztimes.com

 

[JDA]

"Thanks for the memories.."

 

[CSR]

From the above article, which is what I was saying...
“He just pushed it to the max and that’s exactly what he demanded from everybody. He demanded excellence and perfection and wanted the very best that you could give, so the message was purely professional and musical. And evidently Buddy got some of his discipline from the Tommy Dorsey band. I don’t know if Tommy screamed at his guys but Buddy was carrying on a tradition of musical nobility.” The big band world’s equivalent of tough love.

On stage, Buddy was indeed an exacting taskmaster. He always demanded three things from his underlings-attention, respect and 100% conviction. And if he didn’t get it there was invariably hell to pay.”

 

[Tom Holder]

My opinion (if anyone cares) is that Buddy had skills beyond any drummer that I've ever heard. Having said that, let me say that I've never seen him live, don't own any of his records and think that he was incredibly obnoxious and was perfectly horrible to some members of his band. That's got nothing to do with his jaw-dropping skills as a drummer. He was possibly the greatest drummer that ever lived. "Traps, the Drum Wonder" is a great read.

 

[JimmySticks]

From the above article, which is what I was saying...
“He just pushed it to the max and that’s exactly what he demanded from everybody. He demanded excellence and perfection and wanted the very best that you could give, so the message was purely professional and musical. And evidently Buddy got some of his discipline from the Tommy Dorsey band. I don’t know if Tommy screamed at his guys but Buddy was carrying on a tradition of musical nobility.” The big band world’s equivalent of tough love.

On stage, Buddy was indeed an exacting taskmaster. He always demanded three things from his underlings-attention, respect and 100% conviction. And if he didn’t get it there was invariably hell to pay.”

Do you think Buddy was the driving force behind the movie’s main character in Whiplash?

I’m guessing the main characters personality (JK Simmons) could have matched quite a few big band leaders disposition, but somehow Buddy comes to my mind when I watch that movie.

OT - my daughter danced ballet at Lincoln Center when she was younger, and it was at times terrifyingly strict and disciplinarian, close to the movie Whiplash without the physical stuff. Such is the high end world of the arts, so the movie was pretty realistic. No room for buttercups at the top levels. My daughter is better for it.

 

[studrum]

I can’t believe you guys are defending this behavior. You would have to be paying me at least a few hundred thousand dollars a year to put up with that.

I have been in a situation where the leader mislead the comfort and accommodations of the tour be it the size of the vehicle or sleeping arrangements. Even with the modest pay I agreed to, I was still chasing him for money.

Perhaps it was the stress of money, but one day he flipped on me about a particular performance. Even though we were in LA at that point of the tour and I lived in Brooklyn at the time, I immediately quit right then & there. I shipped my gear back, stayed at a friend’s for a few days and then flew home.

I can put up with a lot, but there is no way I’m putting up with being talked down to and yelled.

Now, Dale, I'm trying to make sure I understand your situation. It seems to be different than just "being disciplined" by the boss. Yours is that "things changed" with your professional travel arrangements while on the road. Most of us here, me definitely, would agree that that's unfair, absolutely, and is grounds to walk. It seems clear that your bandleader was using one little mistake you made as a smokescreen for his shortcomings as a leader. Not fair!

We don't get the sense that "things changed" as far as accomodations, etc. for the Rich bands when they traveled. All critiques from the master seem to be honestly based on player performances. In the late 70's I heard tell, from a college jazz band director who had worked for Stan Kenton, that Mr. Rich once fired a trumpet player as the fellow was warming up during rehearsal! Talk about "no awards just for participating!"

 

[Philip T Fitzgerald]

you're giving him too much credit (either

Can you play 1/2 as well?
ptfitzy

 

[Matched Gripper]

I can’t believe you guys are defending this behavior. You would have to be paying me at least a few hundred thousand dollars a year to put up with that.

I have been in a situation where the leader mislead the comfort and accommodations of the tour be it the size of the vehicle or sleeping arrangements. Even with the modest pay I agreed to, I was still chasing him for money.

Perhaps it was the stress of money, but one day he flipped on me about a particular performance. Even though we were in LA at that point of the tour and I lived in Brooklyn at the time, I immediately quit right then & there. I shipped my gear back, stayed at a friend’s for a few days and then flew home.

I can put up with a lot, but there is no way I’m putting up with being talked down to and yelled.

I think your situation, conflicts about getting paid what you are owed, is a different subject than being disciplined by the boss for unprofessional behavior or attitude by a band member. JMO!

Having said that, here is an interview with Don Menza about Buddy that I posted in the other Buddy thread that might be enlightening:

"This has to be documented. Buddy Rich is the only real band leader I ever worked for." See at about 1:17. That says a lot coming from a player like Don Menza.

 

[Slingwig26]

Im not sure how old you are Dale, but things were different BITD. We as a people, were a tougher bunch and we put up with a lot more from bosses and those in charge.

As I said in another post, the typical New Yorker wouldn’t have blinked an eye at Buddy’s behavior, because we were all like him to some degree. I’m not sure what years you lived in Brooklyn but the Brooklyn of the 60s to the 90s is not the Brooklyn of today, not by a long shot! I started in NYC construction in 83, and I can tell you it was rough and tough and if you couldn’t handle the screaming and yelling and maybe worse, you were out. It’s just the way it was and it was accepted. Of course, we have softened up over the years, which I guess is a good thing, but I do sort of miss the grit and toughness of those good ol days!

It was a different time, it was a better time.

 

[Slingwig26]

I think your situation, conflicts about getting paid what you are owed, is a different subject than being disciplined by the boss for unprofessional behavior or attitude by a band member. JMO!

Having said that, here is an interview with Don Menza about Buddy that I posted in the other Buddy thread that might be enlightening:

"This has to be documented. Buddy Rich is the only real band leader I ever worked for." See at about 1:17. That says a lot coming from a player like Don Menza.

Here,here.