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Potentially trading for a Ludwig Club Date. Have a few questions...

Gunnellett

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Hey guys. A drummer friend has a Ludwig Club Date set he is looking to move along. He's into Slingerlands lately and I have a nice late 70's 6.5" COB TDR (Sound King/Krupa/Buddy Rich...) that just sits on my rack that he is interested in. I brought the Ludwigs home last night for a few days to play around with to see what I think and he is doing the same with the Sound King. If we both like, we will see if we can figure out a trade, even or + - cash kind of thing. If either of us is not interested, no big deal.

I'm looking to see what you guys may know of these Luddies and what you may think is a reasonable value/trade.

The sizes are 13, 16, 22. These are definitely player's drums as there are extra holes plugged and or somewhat patched. They look to have been painted a few times as scuffs and dings on the shells show some blue and some white paint. Judging by the serial numbers I'm thinking the bass and 13" may be from 63 and the floor tom from 64. So maybe the floor tom was added later or maybe that is how they were originally purchased?

I plan on pulling a couple of heads to get a better look inside the shells in the next day or 2 but thought I'd throw this thread out there to get things rolling.

The 2 toms came tuned a little higher than I would normally have done but they sound great with the coated Ambassadors on the batters. The 13" is tuned in the bop territory and just sings. The 16" could be ridden with 1/8 notes and be clear without being droning or ringy without muffeling. The bass is a little ringy for me as is but it isn't tuned where I'd like it and has no muffling at all so I'll play around with it when I remove the heads to inspect it.

The badges all look to have been sanded around the edges from prepping for one of the paint jobs. All of the hardware is in nice shape with no real pitting to speak of.

22" Bass
At least one of the hoops are not original, maybe both. Someone tried to patch a hole on top that I'm assuming was from a tom mount that wasn't original to the drum. There are a couple of lines under the paint by the patch job that I think is from patch material. Hoping those are not cracks in the outer ply. There are a couple of plugged holes at the roughly 10:00 position, from the throne, that I'm guessing is from an original rail mount. The handles for the tuning rods are brass. The interior is not painted and looks to be mahogany. The serial number is 0826.

13" Tom
Has COB hoops which I think is pretty cool. When I first picked up the toms I was surprised at the heft of them. I think that is from the hoops. It has part of a baseball bat muffler. The interior was painted white including the bearing edges so it was probably painted with one of the other paint jobs. I don't know the makeup of the plies as I can't see the wood. The mount is not original so I'm thinking there is at least 1 extra hole. The mount matches the leg mounts on the floor tom with the same type of Ludwig script. A magnet will not stick to the mount. The serial number is 0932.

16" Floor Tom
The top hoop is COB. The bottom hoop is COS. The interior was painted white like the 13". There is a funtional baseball bat muffler with red felt for the batter. There are holes for a baseball muffler for the resonant head but no muffler. A magnet does not stick to the leg mounts. I think 2 legs are original. Someone got resourceful and used a stick of all thread for the third leg. The main thing that concerns me about the floor tom is all of the lines that run around the outer ply under the paint. I'm hoping those are not cracks in the ply. Maybe they are marks from previous scrapping paint or wrap off. Any thoughts on that? Hopefully it shows up in the pics. The serial number is 79090. The badge has the circled trademark "R". The badges on the other 2 drums do not have the "R".

Anyway, what do you guys think? A born together set or floor tom added? Do the years, 63 and 64 seem right? What kind of mount/mounts do you think were on the bass? I'll get pictures of inside of the bass to help. Would you be concerned about potential cracks in the outer ply or just likely marks from not so careful prepping for painting?

I'm not concerned about having an all original show piece. I'm good with a nice sounding player's kit I don't have to worry about scuffing that I can maybe fix up later. I would also then not feel bad about drilling for a cymbal mount on the bass. I just don't want structural issues or over pay/trade. If I keep the drums I'd be looking for baseball bat mufflers.
 
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Gunnellett

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Bass drum pics.
 

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Gunnellett

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13" Tom
 

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Gunnellett

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16" Tom
 

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Gunnellett

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I can't seem to get my pictures to post clearly anymore. I can try better shots if requested.

Thanks for any help or insight!
 

Gunnellett

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Could the mount currently on the 13" be put on the bass drum as a cymbal mount or would that not be correct for the year?
 

el_37

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They were most likely not born together from the factory since they didn't make Club Date 16x16's- but it was very common for people to add on a Classic style floor tom back then. My first set was exactly that a- 20/12 Club Date in Oyster Black and a 16x16 Classic floor tom that was added on a year or two later. It was also common for guys to add one from drum store stock the same day they bought the other two drums.

It is certainly in the real of possibility that it was ordered that way- but at the same time without a receipt you are never going to prove it.

The mounts on the floor tom point to 1962-1963. They stopped using those mounts in late 1963. But they also could have been added- most drums I have seen with those mounts have no serial number.

The bass drum spurs are interesting since those are pre 1962 style and also typically weren't used on Club Date drums. The majority of Club Date drums had disappearing spurs that were standard on Club Date drums and later the Jazzette.

The mounted tom had a diamond spade mount on it (the holes are there) and the tom mount was most likely the bass drum hoop mounted tom holder. Club Date drums back then commonly had a cymbal mount dead center on bass- that is probably the hole that was patched.

The baseball bat mufflers are being reproduced now. Even with the slight issues I think you are ahead on the trade- that floor tom alone would probably sell for $350-$450 in the current market. The last 6.5" Buddy Rich with the TDR strainer on ebay didn't even sell for $400. I would not hesitate to make that trade. All the issues are easily repairable.

I am curious if more holes were patched on the bass drum.
 
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Gunnellett

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They were most likely not born together from the factory since they didn't make Club Date 16x16's- but it was very common for people to add on a Classic style floor tom back then. My first set was exactly that a- 20/12 Club Date in Oyster Black and a 16x16 Classic floor tom that was added on a year or two later. It was also common for guys to add one from drum store stock the same day they bought the other two drums.

It is certainly in the real of possibility that it was ordered that way- but at the same time without a receipt you are never going to prove it.

The mounts on the floor tom point to 1962-1963. They stopped using those mounts in late 1963. But they also could have been added- most drums I have seen with those mounts have no serial number.

The bass drum spurs are interesting since those are pre 1962 style and also typically weren't used on Club Date drums. The majority of Club Date drums had disappearing spurs that were standard on Club Date drums and later the Jazzette.

The mounted tom had a diamond spade mount on it (the holes are there) and the tom mount was most likely the bass drum hoop mounted tom holder. Club Date drums back then commonly had a cymbal mount dead center on bass- that is probably the hole that was patched.

The baseball bat mufflers are being reproduced now. Even with the slight issues I think you are ahead on the trade- that floor tom alone would probably sell for $350-$450 in the current market. The last 6.5" Buddy Rich with the TDR strainer on ebay didn't even sell for $400. I would not hesitate to make that trade. All the issues are easily repairable.

I am curious if more holes were patched on the bass drum.
Thank you very much! This is exactly the type of information I'm looking for. This really helps!

I'm really hoping the lines I'm seeing under the paint are just scrapes and not cracks.
 

mlayton

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Just a few things that I can add from experience. Those tom leg mounts were actually used through early 65. There were some guides that had the earlier dates listed years back. They were used as tom mounts, cymbal mounts and floor tom leg mounts. Those 50's style spurs occasionally show up on some 60's 22" Club Date bass drums. I have a pre serial and also a 64 that has those spurs....I too agree that the tom was probably a clipper hoop mounted and certainly with a diamond mount on the tom. I would have expected that bass drum to also have a top center disappearing mount for a cymbal holder...but not always. Hope this helps...Mike
 

Gunnellett

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Just a few things that I can add from experience. Those tom leg mounts were actually used through early 65. There were some guides that had the earlier dates listed years back. They were used as tom mounts, cymbal mounts and floor tom leg mounts. Those 50's style spurs occasionally show up on some 60's 22" Club Date bass drums. I have a pre serial and also a 64 that has those spurs....I too agree that the tom was probably a clipper hoop mounted and certainly with a diamond mount on the tom. I would have expected that bass drum to also have a top center disappearing mount for a cymbal holder...but not always. Hope this helps...Mike
Awesome! Thanks Mike. This information certainly does help.

I really appreciate the help and knowledge folks from this site contribute!
 

wflkurt

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Wow that bass and tom have some pretty low serial numbers. This would point them to late 1963. Look inside any of the drums for a red ink date stamp that may be there. The spur mounts on the bass drum are also holdovers from the late 50's into the early 60's as by 1963, Ludwig was using a gull wing spur on classic series drums. Club dates typically use a straight spur but perhaps these were used to get rid of old inventory. I'm guessing the floor tom is from around 1964-65 timeframe. It's is entirely possible that the set was originally bought in 63-64 as a three piece and the floor was added a little later on. I would be tempted to have these wrapped in a sparkle in one of the colors Ludwig offered back then. You just need to be careful if these were originally painted as the shells could be a tad oversized VS shells that has wrap on them.
 

Gunnellett

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Wow that bass and tom have some pretty low serial numbers. This would point them to late 1963. Look inside any of the drums for a red ink date stamp that may be there. The spur mounts on the bass drum are also holdovers from the late 50's into the early 60's as by 1963, Ludwig was using a gull wing spur on classic series drums. Club dates typically use a straight spur but perhaps these were used to get rid of old inventory. I'm guessing the floor tom is from around 1964-65 timeframe. It's is entirely possible that the set was originally bought in 63-64 as a three piece and the floor was added a little later on. I would be tempted to have these wrapped in a sparkle in one of the colors Ludwig offered back then. You just need to be careful if these were originally painted as the shells could be a tad oversized VS shells that has wrap on them.
Thanks!

Yeah I was also surprised to see such low serial numbers. It would be really cool if I can find a date in the bass drum. The 2 toms have been painted inside so I won't find any numbers there. I'm going to pull heads today to get a look inside, make sure bearing edges are ok, see if I can verify the shell make up, and make sure heads fit easily.

I've had lots of thoughts on the finish. Anywhere from leave them as they are, to strip the paint then sand and oil, to doing a black lacquer, to a black/gold duco (kind of leaning this way), to a sparkle wrap, to possibly matching any orphans I may find in great shape..... I guess a nice benefit with player's condition drums is having a little more artistic freedom without feeling like you are hurting the originality as that has already been done.

With taking the heads I may be able to look at the scarf joints to see if they were originally wrapped or not.
 

Drumbumcrumb

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If the drums all tune up well and sound good, the set must be worth something like $500-$700. The plus side of a players grade set is there’s no anxiety involved - throw em in the car, set them up wherever, no worries.

If you can make a straight trade, I’d call it a good deal for you. Club Dates are a very nice sound, and imo a great value. Those shells paired with minimal hardware make for an epic combination.
 

Gunnellett

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Here are a few pictures of the inside of the bass drum.

The bearing edges look fine. Heads on both sides spin freely.

The drum is musty smelling but I don't see any signs of water damage.

There is writing in chalk. I can't tell what the word is but can see "22". The wood inside is a bit dry and could use a wipe of some type of oil but I don't want to potentially wipe away any chalk.

I didn't see a date.

The patch/plug at the top is roughly 1 1/2" in diameter. There is some cracking that runs along edge of the hole.

Does 1 1/2" diameter seem about right for a cymbal mount?

There are 6 small plugged holes that were probably from a rail mount.

Most of the tuning rods are bent. Not quite sure how that happens.

Pics of the bearing edge at the scarf joint may not show much as there is a fair bit of light blue and black overspray. I hope those black specks aren't actually mold! I lightly wiped with a damp paper towel but that didn't help much.
 

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Gunnellett

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I think the chalk writing may say "maple".

If it does I'm guessing that is the outer ply and the drum was probably originally painted.
 


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