Ride cymbal beat and feel changes in Jazz (Late 60s - 80s)

JFBL

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Hi all,

Looking for your thoughts and input on changes to the ride cymbal beat and feel changes in Jazz as we move toward the end of the 60s and into the 70s, 80s and beyond. Most specifically as it concerns moving from the ride cymbal pattern of the 40's to 60's to the swung 8th note jazz feel Bob Moses and others started playing in the early 70s. Does this change START with Tony and fusion?

Looking to dive into this transition era from a listening and practice perspective. Can you suggest some of your favorite records and drummers for this - late 60's into the 70s?

Thanks - John
 

Seb77

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Do you know John Riley's Beyond Bop drumming book? One of his points is that Roy Haynes and Mel Lewis played broken time early on. Broken time meaning not playing on every count. And Elvin of course, then Jack. Wouldn't want to argue who invented what. However, Tony in comparison (mostly) played the ride more continuously, articulating every beat.
 
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JFBL

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Thanks @Seb77, I was reading Beyond Bop last night and realized much of what I’m looking for is in that book. I’m just at the point where I’m going to start some of those exercises. Appreciate your reply.
 
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multijd

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Look at 8th note Blue Note recordings 60’s/70’s (sidewinder etc. there’s one on almost every album from that period)
Jon Christensen and other Europeans
Airto with Return to Forever
Horace Silver (song for my father) and Canonball Adderly (mercy mercy)
 

TPC

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In "12/8 feel" jazz swing, I do believe there has been a general movement away from a more dotted-eighth/sixteenth feel in the 40's and 50's, to a more triplet based approach, to an almost straight eighth subdivision. (I know there are exceptions in every era.)

These days I don't see a problem playing in any of these styles. Whatever feels right and swinging to you is probably the best approach. I'll try to find some representative examples later when I have a minute.

(Is this what you were referring to, JFBL?)
 

multijd

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Thanks for your input and the listening tips @multijd
Another thought is the MelLewis radio broadcasts with Loren Schoenderg on the history of jazz drums. Mel discusses rounding out the cymbal beat to move away from the dotted 1/8 note and incorporating more of a triplet feel. Even listening back to Jelly Roll Morton’s “Maple Leaf Rag” or the Baby Dodds solo recordings gives an indication of the trajectory of “swing”.
 

JDA

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john Coltrane/Miles Davis changed it with Modes/modal/ where there'd be a pedal tone (either under or a section thru out) where the drummer (cough tony) could fiddle the jazz ride beet (beat..) into permutations
Transferred across the pond (or "drink"..) to Ralph Towner/ Jon Christensen et al..
Think it was the pedal tone/modal introduced by Trane/miles that allowed the swing ride beat to have it's freedom. I dunno just a thought. Almost Indian raga in origin or sitar drone.
Buy every CD ralph Towner wit Jon Christensen on drums) ecm
 
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Aside from doing lots of intensive listening (first!!!!)

Educator and great drummer Skip Hadden has researched this topic a lot. Two drummers that he gives a great deal of credit to is Bruno Carr (with Herbie Mann) in the mid 60's, and Ron Jefferson (with Les McCann and Groove Holmes) in the early 60's.

Skip also wrote a really good book on the subject, here's a link. I have practiced a bunch of his stuff, and taught a little bit of it, when a student asks.


The answer to your question is, NO it didn't start with Tony or Bob Moses, and not even Jon Christensen or Jack. If you want to look for the "genesis," Roy Haynes is a good place to start. Listen to his recording with Miles Davis in 1951, he is breaking up the time then.


Have fun, it's a great subject to explore!
MSG
 

JFBL

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In "12/8 feel" jazz swing, I do believe there has been a general movement away from a more dotted-eighth/sixteenth feel in the 40's and 50's, to a more triplet based approach, to an almost straight eighth subdivision. (I know there are exceptions in every era.)

(Is this what you were referring to, JFBL?)
Thanks @TPC! This is super helpful as I move toward working on more modern styles. This better captures the original intent of my question.
 
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JFBL

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Another thought is the MelLewis radio broadcasts with Loren Schoenderg on the history of jazz drums. Mel discusses rounding out the cymbal beat to move away from the dotted 1/8 note and incorporating more of a triplet feel. Even listening back to Jelly Roll Morton’s “Maple Leaf Rag” or the Baby Dodds solo recordings gives an indication of the trajectory of “swing”.
Yes, yes, yes! What a great resource @multijd, first I've heard of it. And I found the recordings, so will be checking these out. Thanks so much.

https://media.music.txstate.edu/schoenberg/HistoryofDrums.html
 

JFBL

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Aside from doing lots of intensive listening (first!!!!)

Educator and great drummer Skip Hadden has researched this topic a lot. Two drummers that he gives a great deal of credit to is Bruno Carr (with Herbie Mann) in the mid 60's, and Ron Jefferson (with Les McCann and Groove Holmes) in the early 60's.

Skip also wrote a really good book on the subject, here's a link. I have practiced a bunch of his stuff, and taught a little bit of it, when a student asks.


The answer to your question is, NO it didn't start with Tony or Bob Moses, and not even Jon Christensen or Jack. If you want to look for the "genesis," Roy Haynes is a good place to start. Listen to his recording with Miles Davis in 1951, he is breaking up the time then.


Have fun, it's a great subject to explore!
MSG
Thank you @JDA and thank you @nomsgmusic!

I really appreciate that link to Skip Hadden's book :)

Thanks to all of you again for the great information.
 


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