Ringo's Cymbals- a timeline

[toddlittle827]

It's certainly possible he got a second 20" Medium Ride when he got the Sound Edge Hats which would've been in 1967/8 but I tend to think it's the same one from late 1965. very hard to say which logo is metal stamped on his MR cymbal(s) but since these guys were getting their stuff at Drum City chances are they had the Arbiter logos on them imho.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to suss out when the special logos stopped on the Paistes at Drum City and they got the actual Paiste-branded product. 1969 is what I currently think but it could've been earlier than that. 100% in 1966 the Paistes sold at DC still got the Arbiter logo (i've got printed materials to prove it). Beyond that I just don't know yet.

On this note, John can you ask Kenney Jones which metal stamp logo is on his 26" 602? I know he got that at Drum City. There is a story that tells the year he got it (I'll try to find that again - Mick Jagger was in the shop looking for maracas and got pissed that KJ got something for free LOL) It will be interesting to see which logo is on it. Maybe sometimes Paiste sent stuff over with the Paiste logos for the top cats like Kenney and Ringo.

 

[toddlittle827]

looks like 1968 was the year Kenney got the 26" at Drum City, so definitely very interested in knowing which logo is on that cymbal.

 

[K.O.]

I've noticed when listening to isolated drum tracks out of Beatle songs on you tube that a lot of the drum tracks are kind of "lo-fi", particularly the cymbals. I'm not sure how much of this might be from whatever they may be using to extract these tracks out of the recordings or are original to the final recording due to the drums being bounced down a time or two.

My point being that even if Ringo was using what some might consider "lesser" cymbals at various points it might not have made much difference when all you hear is a vague compressed ppsshhhh sound anyway. Although the tracks all sound fine within the context of the final masters. It's not like Rudy Van Gelder capturing the nuances of an old K for a Blue Note recording, even though EMI was a state of the art studio. Probably judged to be "good enough" for pop songs.

 

[GiantBeater]

August 19th 1966- The US Tour stop in Memphis
Noting again for the nth time, the lathe lines in the 20". This photo is new to me and proves that Ringo continued the US tour with the same cymbal pack (14" A Zildjian, 20" A Zildjian, 18" A Zildjian) he used since the 1st US tour, almost two years before. I am really believing that this 20" specifically, is Thee big whooooosh cymbal we hear limited on Rubber Soul and Revolver. My guess is that it is in the ~2100+gram range, it has a slightly typical A Zildjian thicker cymbal roar to it. In fact, if you see the Budakon show footage from '66, the cymbal barely moves when struck.

August 29th- 1966. The Final US show, candlestick park San Francisco.

Next we get into Sgt. Pepper cymbals and beyond. There are some surprises to be had!

 

[JDA]

even ....was using what some might consider "lesser" cymbals

(I wouldn't associate myself with anyone who thought that way..
Things are either Musical or they're not . Made by the operator to be musical at least.
I think an acceptance of the Zyns and NS12 or whatever else expands one's horizons.
Plus you can still get them cheap lol!

neat: you posted the track with double bass.
what is that at 2:10 sounds like something fell off.

I don't hear a bad note in those cymbals
love to find a well worth the entertainment NS12 18" or 20" in a pawn shop for $30.
well worth the entertainment

 

[K.O.]

(I wouldn't associate myself with anyone who thought that way..
Things are either Musical or they're not . Made by the operator to be musical at least.
I think an acceptance of the Zyns and NS12 or whatever else expands one's horizons.
Plus you can still get them cheap lol!

neat: you posted the track with double bass.
what is that at 2:10 sounds like something fell off.

I don't hear a bad note in those cymbals
love to find a well worth the entertainment NS12 18" or 20" in a pawn shop for $30.
well worth the entertainment

I don't include myself in that group that wouldn't accept those cymbals.

I've been involved in the Ringo cymbal debate for at least 30 years. With not much hard intel to go on the fallback position was usually Zildjians. When some photo came along that appeared to rock that assumption the arguement was "but it's Ringo so.....obviously Zildjians". I think we now know better....the internet helps.

I think it's been pretty well determined that the "double bass drum" on this track is Paul playing a muffled floor tom alongside Ringo.

 

[Ludwigboy]

August 19th 1966- The US Tour stop in Memphis
Noting again for the nth time, the lathe lines in the 20". This photo is new to me and proves that Ringo continued the US tour with the same cymbal pack (14" A Zildjian, 20" A Zildjian, 18" A Zildjian) he used since the 1st US tour, almost two years before. I am really believing that this 20" specifically, is Thee big whooooosh cymbal we hear limited on Rubber Soul and Revolver. My guess is that it is in the ~2100+gram range, it has a slightly typical A Zildjian thicker cymbal roar to it. In fact, if you see the Budakon show footage from '66, the cymbal barely moves when struck.
View attachment 531311
August 29th- 1966. The Final US show, candlestick park San Francisco.
View attachment 531312

View attachment 531314
Next we get into Sgt. Pepper cymbals and beyond. There are some surprises to be had!

When I think of " the big whooooosh cymbal" on Revolver, I think of the song "Rain" on when he crashes after his fills. However, on the promo film for that song , Ringo seems to crash on the 18" most of the time with a little on the 20" or on both but he may have have been miming to the music....

 

[JDA]

nothing to see here early picture
from Parade mag.

Ringo Starr Shares Beatles Stories, Never-Before-Seen Photos in New Book

Here’s a chance to see the world through Ringo Starr’s eyes! The iconic musician is releasing a series of previously unpublished photos in his new coffee table

parade.com

can dbl/click/ blow up->

https://static.parade.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ringo-book-5.jpg

 

[JDA]

nothing (there) hi hat pic

https://static.parade.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ringo-book-5.jpg

 

[hsosdrum]

Until the rooftop session photo, I think the best candidate for "always Zildjian" were Ringo's hi-hats.

 

[type85]

I've noticed when listening to isolated drum tracks out of Beatle songs on you tube that a lot of the drum tracks are kind of "lo-fi", particularly the cymbals. I'm not sure how much of this might be from whatever they may be using to extract these tracks out of the recordings or are original to the final recording due to the drums being bounced down a time or two.

My point being that even if Ringo was using what some might consider "lesser" cymbals at various points it might not have made much difference when all you hear is a vague compressed ppsshhhh sound anyway. Although the tracks all sound fine within the context of the final masters. It's not like Rudy Van Gelder capturing the nuances of an old K for a Blue Note recording, even though EMI was a state of the art studio. Probably judged to be "good enough" for pop songs.

As an audio engineer I can tell you that everything you listen to on the internet has been compressed massively.
I don't mean "dynamic" audio compression where you reduce the peak levels, I'm referring to "data compression" as in MP3's.
Uncompressed "full bandwidth" stereo CD or WAV files are 1.41mega bits per second.
MP3's: apple music, Spotify, youtube etc. are somewhere around 128-256 kilobits per second
That means at 128kbs you're throwing away NINETY PERCENT of the data or music!
The first thing that is affected at any compression rate is you lose high frequency low level detail: reverb and cymbals definition and integrity, cymbals start to sound like white noise, drums sound "dry and tight" this is why your youtube clip Ringo's drums sounds so sh!tty!
To really hear what Ringo's cymbals sounded like you need a high quality CD player with good D to A converters or a standalone converter, get a really good set of headphones (no, don't use "beats" headphones! Try a good set of sennheiser's ), and listen closely, you'll be surprised at the amount of detail that is in the recording.
Another note about the Beatles recordings, they were state of the art at the time; all tube signal path from the microphone to the mic pre/console, to the tape machine.
EMI also used 4 track 1" machines which is not a standard format, but twice the track width compared to the standard 4 track ½" machines used in the U.S.
For the "get back" sessions they mentioned George had bought a new 3M M23 1" 8 track machine (the 1st, time the Beatles worked with more than 4 tracks), this was state of the art and used all "discrete transistors", no tubes.
This is a really good sounding machine (this is important because each brand of machine had it's own sound and had a big effect on how the drums sounded, the brand of tape did too!), you can see from the reel speed they recorded at 15ips. (the standard at the time, but by the 70's engineers were running thier machines @ 30ips. for the extra spark up high and the octave extension that went above the limit of human hearing).
I know I'm going waaaay off course here from this discussion, but since we're all drummers here, I wanted to share this info with my fellow drummers and let you know Ringo always got the best.
They did alot of crazy and groundbreaking things audio wise and Ringo's drums were often the guinea pig, tons of compression (Baby you're a rich man), multiple bouncing between machines, over dudding and doubling up the drums (Magical mystery tour-song, Lennon's voice is also "flanged").

 

[JimmyM]

I've noticed when listening to isolated drum tracks out of Beatle songs on you tube that a lot of the drum tracks are kind of "lo-fi", particularly the cymbals. I'm not sure how much of this might be from whatever they may be using to extract these tracks out of the recordings or are original to the final recording due to the drums being bounced down a time or two.

My point being that even if Ringo was using what some might consider "lesser" cymbals at various points it might not have made much difference when all you hear is a vague compressed ppsshhhh sound anyway. Although the tracks all sound fine within the context of the final masters. It's not like Rudy Van Gelder capturing the nuances of an old K for a Blue Note recording, even though EMI was a state of the art studio. Probably judged to be "good enough" for pop songs.

The Beatles got anything they wanted at Abbey Road, and had access to the best gear you could get at the time and mics that hardly anyone else got to use. But with only a couple 4 track machines, they always had to think of the big picture and take bleed and how many bounces they could do to get down to 4 tracks, and that's what Ringo's raw tracks don't have on them...the bleed that adds character to the sounds. Still very low fi by today's standards, but state of the art for the day...they couldn't devote 4 mics to a single drum like everyone does today

 

[DrumKeys]

From "The Great British Recording Studios" by Howard Massey (which I just finished) - Geoff Emerick was quite fond of the Fairchild 660 limiter and ran the entire drum submix into it making the cymbals sound like they were going "backwards". Emerick states - "That's because the bass drum hit was triggering the 660, shutting the cymbals down, and then when the bass drum released, the cymbals were coming back up in volume".

Great thread and thanks for all the excellent research!

 

[type85]

From "The Great British Recording Studios" by Howard Massey (which I just finished) - Geoff Emerick was quite fond of the Fairchild 660 limiter and ran the entire drum submix into it making the cymbals sound like they were going "backwards". Emerick states - "That's because the bass drum hit was triggering the 660, shutting the cymbals down, and then when the bass drum released, the cymbals were coming back up in volume".

Great thread and thanks for all the excellent research!

The technical term for that is "pumping"........

 

[DrumKeys]

The technical term for that is "pumping"........

View attachment 531450

Indeed it is.

 

[GiantBeater]

@type85 very good points on the studio facts. Their usage of; compression, limiting, tape saturation +manipulation, tube gear, a great room with amazing engineers/ producer, also show us how Ringo's cymbal and drum sound changed album to album--even when he seemed to have used the same equipment most of the time from Summer 1964 to early 1967. As evidenced in this thread, I am thankful for the live cymbal shots we have during the rubber soul/revolver era since there is so little photographic evidence of sessions. By 1966, they were using the Fairchild + EQ + mixers more heavy handedly, so it is interesting to see the gear developments going into 1967. Now we are at the point in the timeline in which the band has stopped touring, so it is only studio shots from here on out! Later on in the Sgt. Pepper's sessions, we see a breakthrough in cymbal nerdology!

February 5th- 1967. Filming Penny Lane
You can kinda tell from the patina and lathe lines, he is still using his Zildjian's during this early Sgt. Pepper era. This though was after recording A Day in the Life, Strawberry Fields Forever, Sgt. Peppers song, When I'm 64, Penny Lane. Note the bass drum muffling stayed the same, feeble felt strip and all.

February 22nd- 1967
I believe are still the same Zildjian cymbals we have been seeing the past few years. Note the lathing on the 20" with the tight lathing of the 18". This is the day they recorded A Day In the Life. Geoff Emerick said before he died that the toms were recorded with two mics each- top and bottom. Probably with the bottom heads taken off.

Feb 28th 1967
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds rehearsal
I believe he took the bottom tom drum heads off, used his coat to muffle the bass drum, tea towel on snare
Isolated drum audio:

March 28th- 1967. Recording Good Morning, With a Little Help from my Friends.
The Zyn with Rivets appears! Looks like a Paiste 602 to me as well.

Here on Ringo's Right shows a 20" cymbal with the 602 lathing, I would say this is the Medium ride we see in the Get Back doc. Seen on Ringo's left the Zyn with 5 pentagon formed rivets, as also seen on the Get Back doc.

May 17 1967- I see the 602 and Zyn still

June 24th- 1967. Recording all you need is love

Ta-da! the Zyn logo

 

[JDA]

watching the zoom you two did with John Dc

 

[JDA]

that- Strawberry Fields drums alone really tells the tale on Ride cymbals-
Zildjian 18 0:35
Zildjian 20- 1:35
Zildjian 18- 2:37
single end hit 3:33- ?something else
~
Eye maybe 100% rong but that was fun!

Try it:

 

[GiantBeater]

June 24th 1967
Ringo's right side cymbal looks like the 20" 602 to me. Very specific flat profile and the bell that screams Paiste.

Great views of the hi hats and the lathing, note the rivets in the zyn.

 

[type85]

I cranked up the brightness and yeah, you can see the distinct "coarse" 602 lathing on the cymbal on Ringo's right.

You can clearly see it below in this example:

 

[JDA]

I'd like a double-check from Beater and 85 and others;
On this Cymbal here

Is this an Ajax, a Paiste Stambul or a possibility of both. (which I don't think (...) Did Ajax ever use a Paiste (connection) (or vice versa)

What is that Cymbal thanks gents
@GiantBeater @type85

 

[GiantBeater]

I'd like a double-check from Beater and 85 and others;
On this Cymbal here

Is this an Ajax, a Paiste Stambul or a possibility of both. (which I don't think (...) Did Ajax ever use a Paiste (connection) (or vice versa)

What is that Cymbal thanks gents

That is a 50's Stambul (Paiste origin) that I found online and used it to compare to Ringo's 20" from the early Beatles era. I own Ajax cymbals with the big bell but recently, the lathing views on some of these photos as well as hearing the sound at the end of the song, Please Please Me, lead me to believe it was a paiste cymbal. Ludwig Paiste 3 stars made in Germany at one time also had the giant bells but the Stambul sounds the best.

 

[JDA]

Ok (sorry I erased because I saw the Stambul stamp on it)
What threw me was this. Ajax.

On our Right (his left)..
@GiantBeater (sorry for erasing