Rivet Placement

JimmySticks

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So some of you guys know that I'm having my 18" Kashian crash/ride lathed by Jesse Simpson in Brooklyn. He just brought the cymbal down from 1814 grams to 1600g and it sounds terrific. The ride is darker, more open and much less tingy/pingy, and the crash really opened up nicely as well.

But I want to put some rivets in for some sizzle to really give me a different sound than I have now. Jesse will do it, but he asked how I would like to position them. I'm not sure what the right answer is. How do you figure out the best positioning?
 

Seb77

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With a thin cymbal like yours I would say 1 or 2 rivets is enough, to else the weight might shorten the decay. I would start with just one rivet 1.5" from the edge. Maybe add a second one later yourself.

From https://zildjian.com/support-faqs

We recommend 2 different patterns of rivets to choose from. A "cluster", which is 3 rivets 1 1/2 inches from the edge and 1 inch apart or the "traditiona"l fashion, which are 6 equally spaced rivets 1 1/2 inches from the edge. We will also accommodate a custom pattern if possible.
Some threads: https://www.drumforum.org/threads/rivet-theory.145685/
 

JimmySticks

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With a thin cymbal like yours I would say 1 or 2 rivets is enough, to else the weight might shorten the decay. I would start with just one rivet 1.5" from the edge. Maybe add a second one later yourself.

From https://zildjian.com/support-faqs



Some threads: https://www.drumforum.org/threads/rivet-theory.145685/
Thanks for the quick reply!

Yeah, I'm going to go with one and see how it goes, and then maybe add another. 1.5" sounds right.

Thanks for the link to the other thread as well!
 

TPC

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I always prefer the rivets spaced out evenly, as opposed to clustering them together. For my medium-weight 18's, I generally go with four holes about 1" to 1.5" in from the edge. Of course, you can install only one or two rivets, but four holes gives you some options. I'd be anxious to hear this thing after Jesse's work.
 

JDA

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I'd make it in a Triangle. A very large Triangle encompassing the entire front side. A Pyramid, if you will
a giant Pyramid. Yea that'll do it. :thumbsup:
3 in a triangle

1 3/4" in
 

JimmySticks

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I always prefer the rivets spaced out evenly, as opposed to clustering them together. For my medium-weight 18's, I generally go with four holes about 1" to 1.5" in from the edge. Of course, you can install only one or two rivets, but four holes gives you some options. I'd be anxious to hear this thing after Jesse's work.
My guess is no more than 2, but we'll do it when I'm there so we can see how it's sounding.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't mind me posting the before/after sound files he sent me, but I'll get his permission first, so stand by for that!:)
 

JimmySticks

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You must like my suggestion. I think it's cool and proper.
huh?
I like the idea of a triangle and have seen it many times before, but the Google def of a triangle you linked made me think you were having some fun with me...

No worries, I will ask him about a triangle...
 

David M Scott

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So some of you guys know that I'm having my 18" Kashian crash/ride lathed by Jesse Simpson in Brooklyn. He just brought the cymbal down from 1814 grams to 1600g and it sounds terrific. The ride is darker, more open and much less tingy/pingy, and the crash really opened up nicely as well.

But I want to put some rivets in for some sizzle to really give me a different sound than I have now. Jesse will do it, but he asked how I would like to position them. I'm not sure what the right answer is. How do you figure out the best positioning?
Before you do that consider the common practise of hanging a beaded chain from the stand post. then you can remove it or keep it on depending what sound you want for each. It costs a buck at any hardware store..simply a length of beaded sink plug chain and a light key ring. My first good cymbal was a Canadian Zidjian 18 inch medium ride i bought in 1969. At that time riveted cymbals were all the rage so i had a machine shop drill 4 equally spaced holes about 1/3 of the way from the outer edge and added rivets. "Bam" ....away to much sizzle and sustain so i ended up going down to one rivet and kept getting that smaller and smaller and many times just removed it. I sure wish someone had told me about the sink chain before i drilled my cymbal. The only place i use it with a rivet now is sitting in front of my snare to give definition for brushes... think first...just sayin'
 

JimmySticks

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Before you do that consider the common practise of hanging a beaded chain from the stand post. then you can remove it or keep it on depending what sound you want for each. It costs a buck at any hardware store..simply a length of beaded sink plug chain and a light key ring. My first good cymbal was a Canadian Zidjian 18 inch medium ride i bought in 1969. At that time riveted cymbals were all the rage so i had a machine shop drill 4 equally spaced holes about 1/3 of the way from the outer edge and added rivets. "Bam" ....away to much sizzle and sustain so i ended up going down to one rivet and kept getting that smaller and smaller and many times just removed it. I sure wish someone had told me about the sink chain before i drilled my cymbal. The only place i use it with a rivet now is sitting in front of my snare to give definition for brushes... think first...just sayin'
Point taken.

I have done that before and I do scotch tape pennies to my cymbals sometimes for the same effect as a chain or rivets. I'm 99% sure I want at least one rivet in this cymbal for a different ride sound than I have now, but you bring up a good point, so I will bring a chain tomorrow to help judge how many rivets I want. Thanks!
 

egw

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With a thin cymbal like yours I would say 1 or 2 rivets is enough, to else the weight might shorten the decay.
Hey, Seb. Do you really think 1600g for an 18 is thin? Seems somewhere between medium and heavy to me. 1300g or so would be thin, no?

Surely no reason NOT to start with just one rivet, but I'm sure that cymbal could handle 3-4 rivets, no problem.
 

JDA

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You could tie the triangle into the old Italian Triangular used on some Ufip. Is this Kashian an Italian (cymbal) Jimmy?



 
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David M Scott

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Point taken.

I have done that before and I do scotch tape pennies to my cymbals sometimes for the same effect as a chain or rivets. I'm 99% sure I want at least one rivet in this cymbal for a different ride sound than I have now, but you bring up a good point, so I will bring a chain tomorrow to help judge how many rivets I want. Thanks!
Many years ago there was a product made that had a standard cymbal stand nut and two folding arms that had 3 rivets on the end of each arm, head down. I had one for many years until it finally broke but it worked great...and because it had two arms and 6 rivets i could get as much or little sizzle as i required. I believe they are still available on Amazon or E Bay and might be an option for you. All i'm trying to point out is the fact that once you drill the cymbal there's no going back. If you buy an expensive cymbal that may be considered a classic someday, altering it certainly reduces it's value. Look at the price used K's, Paiste classics and Boshphorous are demanding and getting and Sabian is now turning out some classics..just think first..just sayin
 

JimmySticks

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You could tie the triangle into the old Italian Triangular used on some Ufip. Is this Kashian an Italian (cymbal) Jimmy?



Yeah, she's a real Italian.

Mine is stamped Kashian however, because my guess is UFIP was trying to cash in on the whole Turkish craze with these faux Arabic names.

That triangle idea isn't bad actually! :icon_lol:
 
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JimmySticks

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Many years ago there was a product made that had a standard cymbal stand nut and two folding arms that had 3 rivets on the end of each arm, head down. I had one for many years until it finally broke but it worked great...and because it had two arms and 6 rivets i could get as much or little sizzle as i required. I believe they are still available on Amazon or E Bay and might be an option for you. All i'm trying to point out is the fact that once you drill the cymbal there's no going back. If you buy an expensive cymbal that may be considered a classic someday, altering it certainly reduces it's value. Look at the price used K's, Paiste classics and Boshphorous are demanding and getting and Sabian is now turning out some classics..just think first..just sayin
This cymbal is a learning experience. It was a cymbal I wasn't completely happy with and will not likely ever be very valuable. I'll be underwater with this after it's done, but I'm ok with that, as long as it sounds good and I get some good cymbal smith lessons out of it.

So in the end, I'm committed to having some sizzle (rivets) in this one. :)
 

Seb77

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Hey, Seb. Do you really think 1600g for an 18 is thin? Seems somewhere between medium and heavy to me. 1300g or so would be thin, no?

Surely no reason NOT to start with just one rivet, but I'm sure that cymbal could handle 3-4 rivets, no problem.
Sorry I misread the first post, thinking it was about a 20". Totally agree with you.
 

JimmySticks

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I'd make it in a Triangle. A very large Triangle encompassing the entire front side. A Pyramid, if you will
a giant Pyramid. Yea that'll do it. :thumbsup:
3 in a triangle

1 3/4" in
You win the prize!

I went with 3 rivets in a TRIANGLE! A very large triangle...:-D

You can hear the cymbal before and after the lathing in my other thread, however no rivets then.
 

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