Rob Brown and Flams

toddbishop

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If we're going to go this route, what is a double stroke but two single strokes? So everything breaks down to: if you learn to play one note you can do everything, so play Wilcoxon cover to cover for me right now.

Maybe not. I mean, if you still have to learn to play a paradiddle, what's the point of this? It was always about training the hands to do combinations of motions at speed-- it doesn't matter if you can break them down further on paper.

More a variation of the double stroke as it is an upstroke followed by a downstroke.
Always strange to me that the two rudiments people never include the up stroke and the down stroke, and rarely the multiple bounce stroke.
 

poco rit.

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I feel like Drumeo takes 1 step backwards for every 2 steps forwards.
 

multijd

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Flam taps, yes.

Just a flam? No.
I can show you what I mean by this. Essentially a double stroke roll is a downstroke and an upstroke played consecutively in each hand. A flam is also a downstroke and an upstroke but where both are played (almost) simultaneously in each hand. A flam tap is three strokes in each hand, down-tap-up, where the first and last strokes in each hand are played (almost) simultaneously. Incidentally the Swiss army triplet is also a downstroke and upstroke played in each hand and therefore closely related to the flam and doublestroke.
 

toddbishop

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Essentially a double stroke roll is a downstroke and an upstroke played consecutively in each hand.
I don't follow. A double stroke roll is a RRLL sticking played at an even volume, repeated for the duration of the roll. No downstrokes or upstrokes involved.

Are we not using the same definitions? A downstroke is a high note that rebounds low, an upstroke is a low note that rebounds high. If there are no soft notes in a pattern, there is no reason to downstroke.
 

BlackPearl

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I watch

I really enjoy Rob Browns videos and I watchv and them a lot. I remember that comment and I thought the same thing . I like flams too. But he definitely redeemed himself to me because he has 2 Flam videos . One is called Flam Jam and I forget the name of the other . One is a 10 minute exercise and the other 15. I try not to hang too much on every word guys say . Because sometimes we say something in the moment that we might have a different take on later. I know Rob Browns main thing is keeping everything simple and that works for me! Happy drumming guys
In addition to those, he did this video of flam exercises, and in the intro he explains a bit about why he doesn't include the flam in his essential rudiments. I still find the statement that a drummer could go a lifetime without flams and be "just fine" flabbergasting, but at least here he makes it clear that flams are important ... and generally I think he is a great drummer and teacher.

 

bpaluzzi

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I can show you what I mean by this. Essentially a double stroke roll is a downstroke and an upstroke played consecutively in each hand. A flam is also a downstroke and an upstroke but where both are played (almost) simultaneously in each hand. A flam tap is three strokes in each hand, down-tap-up, where the first and last strokes in each hand are played (almost) simultaneously. Incidentally the Swiss army triplet is also a downstroke and upstroke played in each hand and therefore closely related to the flam and doublestroke.
Ah, you're talking continuous / hand-to-hand flams. I was talking a single flam. We're on the same page now :)
 

toddbishop

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Those are just bad doubles, with an accent on the first note and a weak second note. Both notes are supposed to be the same volume, as much as possible. I don't know any school of thought that says the second note of the double should be weaker, doing downstrokes and upstrokes to make sure it's weaker.
 

Pat A Flafla

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All drum technique can be broken down into three mechanical stroke types: repeated strokes of one height (tap, full, etc), height changes or control strokes (down/up), and rebounds (regardless of number of bounces). Everything is just assembly of these three parts. In my teaching practice, I refer to them as the primary colors of snare drum technique.
 

multijd

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Those are just bad doubles, with an accent on the first note and a weak second note. Both notes are supposed to be the same volume, as much as possible. I don't know any school of thought that says the second note of the double should be weaker, doing downstrokes and upstrokes to make sure it's weaker.
Lol. Ok Todd n
 

multijd

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I don’t understand what’s funny?
What I find funny is that you can’t see the connection between the three rudiments that I demonstrated. Do you play a double stroke using two “single strokes” in each hand? You don’t use a rebounded, lifted stroke for the second in each hand? Isn’t a double stroke one stroke while the stick is moving down and the other as it is starting to lift? What are you disputing here? The eveness of my doubles? Ok. Maybe not perfectly performed in the video. But the concept is there. How about you make a video of yourself playing the three rudiments and post it and we go from there?
 

toddbishop

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What I find funny is that you can’t see the connection between the three rudiments that I demonstrated. Do you play a double stroke using two “single strokes” in each hand? You don’t use a rebounded, lifted stroke for the second in each hand?
At the tempo you're playing, yes, I'll play them basically as two full strokes. Rebound/no rebound has nothing to do with the terms here-- full/down/tap/up strokes are strictly about stick heights in the course of playing a single stroke.

Isn’t a double stroke one stroke while the stick is moving down and the other as it is starting to lift? What are you disputing here? The eveness of my doubles? Ok. Maybe not perfectly performed in the video. But the concept is there.
No, I'm looking for the downstroke an upstroke in a correctly played double stroke or double stroke roll. There's never a point in a double stroke when you stop the stick close to the head, which is what a downstroke is. There are no low notes that rebound by lifting the stick to the high position, which is what an upstroke is.

How about you make a video of yourself playing the three rudiments and post it and we go from there?
Of course. My form isn't perfect-- if you see anything resembling a downstroke in my open roll at faster speeds, that's a flaw in my technique, it's not by design.

 

Toast Tee

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I enjoy Rob Brown's videos quite a bit - he's got a practical no nonsense approach to many things.

Something he says on this one he did for Drumeo gives me pause though. His main assertion is that you only really need to learn three rudiments : (spoiler alert ...) the single stroke roll, the double stroke roll, and the single paradiddle. When he said this, I found it odd that the flam is not included in his list of fundamental rudiments, but then, he says "You can go your entire life without ever playing a flam, and you'll be just fine".

Am I alone in finding this a bit flabbergasting ? I love flams. I probably play them too much, but I can't imagine playing drums without flams. I've just started working on Steve Gadd's book, which is totally centered around flam rudiments.

Is there anyone else out there who thinks flams are unnecessary ?

Yes, I saw that, and thought the same thing. When it comes down to it, almost all are out for the mighty $, maybe a little fame, notoriety. I'd guess that was scripted. I've followed Rob for years now. Apparently I'm not the only one.
I actually stopped watching that video when he didn't mention flams.
Currently I know far more than I can play, or execute, and I'm sure I come of as... well, whatever ya want to think, if there's even any thought at all.
I try to tell it as it is, but as a great drummer once told me "You can learn something from everyone. Even if it's what not to do"
I'm not looking to have a giant youtube page, or following like Rob, and the others. I just want honest feedback, and the truth. IMHO guys like Rob, and other "big" youtubers egos have gotten out of hand. I'm actually not sure if that's the case with Rob, as I don't know him, but the magic 8 ball says differently. I also know I contradicted myself by not watching the entire video. I just have to be selective with my time these days
 

Stixkubwa

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I've been a long time subscriber of his, but I don't always agree with what he says. and this would be one of those times. I think the flam is an important 'building block' of rudiments and snare/hand technique.
He's really presenting an inaccurate picture of the context and value of rudiments and by discounting the flam is not helping students with understanding the relationship for applying the technique further down the road. That is, with the rudiments that require applying a single or double stroke grace note (flams, drags, ratamacues), you're essentially learning how to play the 'ghost note'... just curious how important, rhetorically speaking, he thinks that is? Maybe it's the inherent difference between being a content creator and creating a cohesive pedagogy.
Hi my friend. Your last sentence may have hit the nail on the head.
 
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bolweevil

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I am very bad at flams; maybe the video was made for people like me who want a little confirmation bias to feel it's ok.
 

multijd

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At the tempo you're playing, yes, I'll play them basically as two full strokes. Rebound/no rebound has nothing to do with the terms here-- full/down/tap/up strokes are strictly about stick heights in the course of playing a single stroke.



No, I'm looking for the downstroke an upstroke in a correctly played double stroke or double stroke roll. There's never a point in a double stroke when you stop the stick close to the head, which is what a downstroke is. There are no low notes that rebound by lifting the stick to the high position, which is what an upstroke is.


Of course. My form isn't perfect-- if you see anything resembling a downstroke in my open roll at faster speeds, that's a flaw in my technique, it's not by design.

Getting back to our discussion here. I think terminology is a factor. I’m using the term upstroke to mean the stroke which is lifted to prepare the next throw in a double, not exclusively a stroke with less force or volume. The second stroke of the double can be “evened out” dynamically through the use of the fingers ala Roy Burns.
 

Stixkubwa

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Regarding flams. The essential feature of striking a drum is in audio terms a fast attack and decay. There is no sustain or lengthening of the tone produced by striking. The flam is a way of thickening the tone so there is a longer attack and decay. The grace note which precedes the main note has the same volume as the main note but no counted time value. It is not played "softer". Most drum rudiments have been created through oral representations of they sound they create. When we say F-LAM, when we say ratamacue, when we say paradiddle and some others we almost get what the rudiment means.
 


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