Rogers Shells - Species of the plies ?

GrandpaCleve

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kdsdwc said:
Gary , you were born in the wrong era ! LOL ! And I can relate , with my cabinet making , I make things to last decades not years .
Funny you should say that I feel like I wanted to grow up in the 1950s. We are getting "experienced" from your efforts Kevin with the lab test results! Your results will not be necessarily stoned...but beautiful.

To quote Jimi
 

kdsdwc

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Gary , funny that you should use a Hendrix song . I had that album shortly after it came out , and I can remember ALL my buddies looking at me and saying that isn't music ! LOL ! I was told about this album from a friend who said " the music sucks , but the drumming is GREAT !" It took me 4 months to find another person who had , and liked this album . I think it was the summer before entering high school and my drums were at a friends house where we were jamming with some guys from another school . This guitar player started playing Fire and I was completely impressed that he knew Hendrix , and started playing along with him , I will always remember that day because we went on to play in bands together all thru high school and he was best man at my wedding . Only the good ones die young , he died at age 26 , drug overdose ! Complete BUMMER ! And still miss that guy to this day .
 

GrandpaCleve

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Kevin, First of all sorry for your loss. My condolences.

Second, I always have Axis-Bold as Love in the car.

Third, I asked my pal what his deep Dyna rings were and his isn't fruitwood but still has regular screw driver head screws and it was 3 ply re reings. I'd still like to take a pic outside on mine to compare fruitwood to fruitwood but maybe the dark stain was playing a tirck on me and it is 3 ply too. Might be just on deeper drums like the 10x14 that was used as a sample that had a solid ring. We are getting more snow tomorrow so no time soon on those pics of my drum. But I will get there once the weather does. Apples to apples.
 

rhythmace

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Here is a thought. Did Rogers actually advertise a certain wood makeup, back in the day? If someone at Keller or Rogers got it wrong, that may have been the origins of Maple in 3 of the plies. It does make sense that wood Dynas would have an upgraded shell make up. Ace
 

tommykat1

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rhythmace said:
Here is a thought. Did Rogers actually advertise a certain wood makeup, back in the day? If someone at Keller or Rogers got it wrong, that may have been the origins of Maple in 3 of the plies. It does make sense that wood Dynas would have an upgraded shell make up. Ace
Just an educated guess, but I think what we're seeing here is a general use of 3 ply, then 5 ply shells through the Dayton era, just as the company was sold to CBS. It is likely that the Rogers procurers in Covington/Cleveland/Dayton expected quality control from Jasper, and then Keller. Harry Cangany says Maple and birch were used, but we only assume that it was alternating plies with maple on the outer and inner plies. There's no documentation of this that I know of, unless GrandpaCleve has something he found in his research over time.

Forum brother kdsdwc has discovered that the Fullerton series not only had flawed bearing edges (this had been documented by Rogers scholars), but that the shells--some of them anyway--went to all birch for a time. This could have been a cost cutting move, as I understand that birch is/was plentiful and much less expensive than maple.

Then in 1979 Rogers went to the XP8 series of 8 ply New England Rock maple in a bid to re-up their quality.
 

GrandpaCleve

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rhythmace said:
Here is a thought. Did Rogers actually advertise a certain wood makeup, back in the day? If someone at Keller or Rogers got it wrong, that may have been the origins of Maple in 3 of the plies. It does make sense that wood Dynas would have an upgraded shell make up. Ace
Ace, In the Covington era of Rogers there was no other mention of shell construction as a selling point other than "Perma Built shell." Just the abveviation of the word "permanent," lasting forever, shells were advertised as a selling point in that Grossman Music owned era.
 

Rich K.

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GrandpaCleve said:
Kevin, First I thank you for the kind words. I also see that re reing as a chunk and not plied. It is 0 degrees outside today and with snow tomorrow I will not take that caliber of a drum outside right now. I will wait a few days for more pics outside on a sunny day when the snow is melting. No problem to be certain about this difference in re ring on deeper dynas. More to follow in a few days on this. I will follow through...we need to know this detail.

And I can ride a unicycle as well. Did so with the H.S. marching band once through the down town streets of Freehold (close to Farmingdale) while playing on the "ands" funking up all those songs that day with cowbell in one hand and stick in the other. I can also play a mean kazoo due to the 1940s kazoo inventions from Mr. Thompson:
Next you're going to tell us you can break dance too.
 

GrandpaCleve

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Shhhhh Rich! The last thing I need is meeting Kevin at a drum show and having to show my rusty skills. You know me too well from being in a small office working for you for 7 yrs. Don't let all my tricks out of the bag. My black zippered parachute pants are long gone. But always tempted when I see a large piece of cardboard on the ground.
 

kdsdwc

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GrandpaCleve said:
Shhhhh Rich! The last thing I need is meeting Kevin at a drum show and having to show my rusty skills. You know me too well from being in a small office working for you for 7 yrs. Don't let all my tricks out of the bag. Had to break dance to get by(fit in and stay alive) in Staten Island middle school and perform in the school yard breaks. Needed to fit in to survive. I was the minority there...my black zippered parachute pants are long gone. But always tempted when I see a large piece of cardboard on the ground.
LMFAO !!!

As I stated and expected , you the Guru , are multi-talented ! You're a trip to Hollywood !

Thanks , Rich K for letting the cat out of the bag !
 

GrandpaCleve

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That tough middle school mascot was a bulldog. Break dancing was a thing of the times. Saw fights between races that lead to people leaving on stretchers and not healing to return to school for weeks and returning with patches on their eyes/faces and casts on limbs. Also, I was into early rap(Run DMC, Fat Boys, Beastie Boys, Slick Rick and Doug E. Fresh first albums) before finding the original sampled artists like The Meters, James Brown, Otis Redding and Wilson Pickett.

Enough about me and back to the Rogers shells please. Thanks!
 

kdsdwc

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Gary , I've been sanding more bearing edges with all sorts of surprises , Please check it out .

See that Pageant snare , 5 ply shell , 3 ply re-ring . Low # Cleveland .

And that Black Dyna is one of three that I made and is more of a show off pic , it does have 5 ply shell and ring , and thats a Big R shell , you can tell by the patch that I made .

I've got others that I have to drag out and do some more sanding on the edges . I'm right into it now !
 

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GrandpaCleve

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Kevin, Very pleased that you are on the wood Rogers case. Your findings will put many arguments and questions to rest.

My friend with the later natural finshed 6.5 with 3 ply re rings is checking on a drum he sold that was fruitwood and 6.5 dyna to compare apples to apples from the same era. I await his reply.


Update: Just heard back from my friend Chris:

"Hey Gary -
The 6.5 fruit wood also has a 3 ply ring.
I also checked my 6.5 gold, wmp and 5 fruitwood wmp.. all which has 3 ply rings.
The search continues!"


So...what was the deal with that solid re ring on the fruitwood Dyna marcher 10x14?!?
 

kdsdwc

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Gary , this is very interesting and confusing all at the same time !

So are those Dyna shells 3 or 5 ply ? That Pageant snare that I have above has 3 ply re-rings and a 5 ply shell and its a Cleveland .

And that solid ring on that Dyna piece is something that is a bit of a puzzle , maybe more are out there ?

So we are finding out that not all Clevelands were 3 ply shell and 3 ply rings .

The quest continues , stay tuned . LOL !
 

rhythmace

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So now I am wondering if the shell ply that has the bearing edge, or most of it, has an effect on the sound? Would birch sound different than poplar? Plus, would heartwood birch sound different than the outer wood? I am talking about drums with modern edges. BTW, I thought that fruitwood was a stain? Ace
 

GrandpaCleve

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Ace, the "fruitwood" was just a stain for the finish in that era. The term/word of "fruitwood" was made up by the vintage community as they never advertised that in the catalogs. It simply distinguished the dark ones from the clear coated drums.

I have asked my friend to chime in to this thread and help with the Dyna shell construction questions you asked me.
 

rhythmace

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I have a DW solid maple snare set up next to a wood Powertone snare. Man the DW sounds so much lower than the Rogers. I am thinking that the Powertone just might be birch, even maybe without poplar between? Could be all birch plies based on the sound. It's hard to be sure, because of the paint, but most of them seem to be 3 ply shells. Ace
 

DanC

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The Powertone sounds crisp because of the sharp edges, thin shell, and the Rogers rerings.

Not trying to offend anyone but, all this talk of all-birch and such is utter nonsense...

People much more knowledgeable than we are have examined, studied and played these drums for decades. The general consensus is that they are primarily maple, with some filler plies of one type or another.

Have there been variations over the years, anomalies and such? You bet. Rogers never guaranteed the specific content of their drums - nobody did back then.
Today, all these ingredients are an article of faith among new drum buyers - and the drum companies are happy to oblige as long as the buyers... buy.

In those years, things varied on the assembly lines across America. Production was more organic and variations were accepted. Trying to pin down what each variation is and when each started is a fools errand, if you ask me.

Do the drums sound good? Are they solid and well made? Do they look great? That's all that matters to me, and I've had a few hundred of them in pieces on my bench. The quality is there, thru and thru, and so is the magic of handling them.

I'm all for fleshing out the details in a company's history, putting a reasonably accurate timeline together to be used for dating and understanding what the company was all about and how it evolved.

But this pursuit of dissecting the components down to the lowest level is beside the point, in my opinion. Destructive testing in a CSI lab is next, or maybe we'll test a scrap of a shell in a particle accelerator. I think Cal Tech has one.

Anybody got their number?
 


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