So dig it.... I can't hear any definition in your washy ride. None. Nada.

jaymandude

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Americana my ass. I'm sitting in the audience and I hear nothing from your Istanbul Agop or K Con. Certainly not stick, not even wash, just noise. It's not hip, it's not cool. It's just..... nothing. There's no overheads bro. It's not working. Man up and get a ride cymbal...

Rant over...
 

Mongrel

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Whew! Scared me for a second....I play some "Americana" stuff....but don't own any of those cymbals...!
 

JDA

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You're talking about the "overdrive" " wash Ride" Sabian began promoting a few years back (the inspiration being maybe the 90s grunge Dave Grohl explosion ) (even tho it came from Ringo and Keith Moon (and Mitch Mitchell) 60s- the decades prior)

yea. not the max roach, jimmy cobb, philly joe jones, tonywilliams (until later) Miles Davis clear approach
but hey ya know everyone likes a little Nirvana with their soup, (very little) and coffee every now and then ; )
Or were you thinking of the ride cymbal clarity of 80s hair metal bands?
 
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jaymandude

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You're talking about the "overdrive" " wash Ride" Sabian began promoting a few years back (the inspiration being maybe the 90s grunge Dave Grohl explosion ) (even tho it came from Ringo and Keith Moon (and Mitch Mitchell) 60s- the decades prior)

yea. not the max roach, jimmy cobb, philly joe jones, tonywilliams (until later) Miles Davis clear approach
but hey ya know everyone likes a little Nirvana with their soup, (very little) and coffee every now and then ; )
Or were you thinking of the ride cymbal clarity of 80s hair metal bands?
Something in the middle would be fine.
 

Tracktuary

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The problem is that all of these guys are buying cymbals based on sound files in isolation and not in context. And the trashy, jazz rides are somehow hip for rock music (or so they think), but they completely disappear on stage.

A friend of mine plays in a number of rock-type groups. He switched from all Paiste to all Agop within the last couple years. I heard him with an Alt-Country band--overheads and all. But I couldn't his main ride the entire night (22" Agop Signature).

The same goes for low tunings. They sound great when you're by yourself in a room (think Carter McClean videos). But there is no tone projecting at all when you are on the stand. It took me a while to learn these things, and I just play small group jazz! I now crank my drums and ride an Old K. No time for flap flap thwap.
 

jaymandude

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The problem is that all of these guys are buying cymbals based on sound files in isolation and not in context. And the trashy, jazz rides are somehow hip for rock music (or so they think), but they completely disappear on stage.

A friend of mine plays in a number of rock-type groups. He switched from all Paiste to all Agop within the last couple years. I heard him with an Alt-Country band--overheads and all. But I couldn't his main ride the entire night (22" Agop Signature).

The same goes for low tunings. They sound great when you're by yourself in a room (think Carter McClean videos). But there is no tone projecting at all when you are on the stand. It took me a while to learn these things, and I just play small group jazz! I now crank my drums and ride an Old K. No time for flap flap thwap.
exactly
 

Mcjnic

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"Flap Flap Thwap" - The Roman RingCalls (1963)
What a phenomenal song!!!
I remember where I was standing the first time I heard that tune.
What a reach back into the old archives for that one.
 

Dragonlordapocalypse

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I got myself a Zildjian K light 22 and I love it. It’s dark and washy and overall sounds great. But within the context of a full band...it’s lacking projection for sure. I feel like with Americana the Zildjian K light (and similar cymbals) should be okay though. Even in a big room...I mean it’s acoustic guitars and mandolins. It’s not like you’re fighting a rock guitarist and his metal zone pedal for a place in the mix.
 

Ickybaby

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Dark, washy rides sound great with piano trios.

As unhip as they may be, a good old A Zildjian medium is about one of the best sounding rides ever out front (obviously IMHO...your mileage may vary, we don't all like the same things, blah, blah, blah).
 

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Interesting thread. Having played in several Americana bands over the years, I know what you are talking about. This tends to happen in unmiced situations. However, if anything I definitely hear more pingy rides than anything else.

There is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing worse than hearing “ping, ping, ping’” throughout a folky, country song. I’d rather hear next to nothing than hear that crap. It’s typically someone playing a Zildiian A Custom or Sabian AA that is heavy as hell. They sound like a gong if crashed and a trash can lid when being ridden on. To each their own I guess.
 

DrummerJustLikeDad

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"Flap Flap Thwap" - The Roman RingCalls (1963)
What a phenomenal song!!!
I remember where I was standing the first time I heard that tune.
What a reach back into the old archives for that one.
Thanks, Mcjnic, I almost forgot about that song! At first I thought Tractuary was talking about that other early 60s classic, Eep Opp Ork Ah Ah by Jet Screamer, from a year earlier.
 

Mcjnic

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Thanks, Mcjnic, I almost forgot about that song! At first I thought Tractuary was talking about that other early 60s classic, Eep Opp Ork Ah Ah by Jet Screamer, from a year earlier.
"Eep Opp Ork Ah Ah" - Jet Screamer ... written by Elroy Jetson
What a freeeeekin cool hit that was.

In all seriousness ... how cool was it to have Ernest T. Bass singing that one!!! What a wild realization for this kid. That hick on Andy's show was Jet Screamer ... that put me on track to learn about V.O. work and such. It lit this little kid up.
 

jaymandude

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Interesting thread. Having played in several Americana bands over the years, I know what you are talking about. This tends to happen in unmiced situations. However, if anything I definitely hear more pingy rides than anything else.

There is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing worse than hearing “ping, ping, ping’” throughout a folky, country song. I’d rather hear next to nothing than hear that crap. It’s typically someone playing a Zildiian A Custom or Sabian AA that is heavy as hell. They sound like a gong if crashed and a trash can lid when being ridden on. To each their own I guess.
Well of course I don't want to hear that either. But you get it. Maybe Americana was a stretch, there's different instrumentations for sure. Last night's band didn't have mandolin, and it did have an electric bass. But still, I don't want a 2002 Power Bell but come on...
 

drummerjohn333

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This thread is a lot about knowing what (what select ride cymbal) to play where/when.

You can be assured, when the trend runs its course, the fools will be selling these off faster than Buddy Rich's grace notes.

Says a lot about marketing. Some great choppy drummer demoing a cymbal and the (fools) are deaf to the fact that it has very limited application. They save all their pennies to afford it, then someday they regret chasing the trends.

"Tradition" and "classic" withstand the test of time for a reason.......and so will wise drummers and drummer consumers.
 

JazzDrumGuy

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I think that some of it has to do with bad cymbal choices (ie: sound like crap) or wrong cymbal choices (ie: bashing on jazzy/washy cymbals). It just depends.

My main gigging ride is a 22 Bosphorus traditional. It could work for jazz but is much better for a mid ping/wash sound, great clear bell & a big dark crash. I also think how it's played is key - the touch & feel is key. I can get a ping out of it, I can crash ride it, I can get wash out of it, and it works for the many genres I have to cover.

I don't know an exact example of the style to which the OP is referring, but I can picture just bashing and crash riding the ride and that's gonna purposely be all wash and no definition.......
 

Topsy Turvy

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I think that some of it has to do with bad cymbal choices (ie: sound like crap) or wrong cymbal choices (ie: bashing on jazzy/washy cymbals). It just depends.

My main gigging ride is a 22 Bosphorus traditional. It could work for jazz but is much better for a mid ping/wash sound, great clear bell & a big dark crash. I also think how it's played is key - the touch & feel is key. I can get a ping out of it, I can crash ride it, I can get wash out of it, and it works for the many genres I have to cover.

I don't know an exact example of the style to which the OP is referring, but I can picture just bashing and crash riding the ride and that's gonna purposely be all wash and no definition.......
I had a 22” Istanbul Agop Traditional, which is very similar to your Bosporus. In my opinion, cymbals like this are - generally speaking- way too damn washy. I sold mine off after hearing nothing but a roar of wash when another drummer (with decent touch) sat in for a song. No thanks. There has to be a happy balance where you get some stick and some wash.

I also want to say, I personally don’t like the sound of Zildjian As or A Customs. They may stand the test of time for some, but I am not a fan.
 

charlesm

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The thing is that in certain styles of music that are popular and buzzing right now, it IS the right sound. It's beyond simply a practical matter; those dark cymbal sounds are one of the key factors that define a lot of current music. So, there is probably an expectation that, as a drummer, you are going to bring those sounds to the table.

In a live situation, though, you have to do what works. Darker cymbals often work fine with the right miking or acoustically in small rooms.

Unmiked and trying to cut through a dense mix? Forget it. Not saying one needs to go to bright, pingy cymbals, but maybe darker cymbals with a little more weight would be helpful.

K Dark Medium 22" (a good one) is a wonderful example of that concept. Dark, lots of complex character, but it still cuts.

T. Bruce Wittet has long championed the idea of cymbals that are both dark and heavy. Character plus strong presence. His writings on that subject are very interesting and he makes some logical arguments.
 

Topsy Turvy

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The thing is that in certain styles of music that are popular and buzzing right now, it IS the right sound. It's beyond simply a practical matter; those dark cymbal sounds are one of the key factors that define a lot of current music. So, there is probably an expectation that, as a drummer, you are going to bring those sounds to the table.

In a live situation, though, you have to do what works. Darker cymbals often work fine with the right miking or acoustically in small rooms.

Unmiked and trying to cut through a dense mix? Forget it. Not saying one needs to go to bright, pingy cymbals, but maybe darker cymbals with a little more weight would be helpful.

K Dark Medium 22" (a good one) is a wonderful example of that concept. Dark, lots of complex character, but it still cuts.

T. Bruce Wittet has long championed the idea of cymbals that are both dark and heavy. Character plus strong presence. His writings on that subject are very interesting and he makes some logical arguments.
Hmm...I’m curious, does he mention any specific models? I have been on a dark/slightly heavy kick lately as I find a good balance with some models.
 

SKINZ

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The thing is that in certain styles of music that are popular and buzzing right now, it IS the right sound. It's beyond simply a practical matter; those dark cymbal sounds are one of the key factors that define a lot of current music. So, there is probably an expectation that, as a drummer, you are going to bring those sounds to the table.

In a live situation, though, you have to do what works. Darker cymbals often work fine with the right miking or acoustically in small rooms.

Unmiked and trying to cut through a dense mix? Forget it. Not saying one needs to go to bright, pingy cymbals, but maybe darker cymbals with a little more weight would be helpful.

K Dark Medium 22" (a good one) is a wonderful example of that concept. Dark, lots of complex character, but it still cuts.

T. Bruce Wittet has long championed the idea of cymbals that are both dark and heavy. Character plus strong presence. His writings on that subject are very interesting and he makes some logical arguments.

I have K DARK med 22 and a Paiste Sound Creation 22 Dark Medium NEW DIMENSIONS Ride an A 22 Paiste Rude Ride/Crash they all cut and u can hear them defined compared to my Bosphorus
cymbal setup.....which is jazz thin dark smoky :cool:
 

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