So dig it.... I can't hear any definition in your washy ride. None. Nada.

bongomania

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One of my very favorite pies is an Agop sig 22 at 2500 g, which is _much_ heavier than they’ve made in a few years. It fits in that sweet spot of “dark and heavy” (relatively speaking) for moody tone with definition.

I also just nabbed a 50’s A 20 at 2140 g that’s more complex in the highs, but with a dark overall tone, same deal.
 

charlesm

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Hmm...I’m curious, does he mention any specific models? I have been on a dark/slightly heavy kick lately as I find a good balance with some models.
I remember him waxing poetic about the K Symphonic 22". Seemed like his dream ride. Here's the article, actually:

 

charlesm

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One of my very favorite pies is an Agop sig 22 at 2500 g, which is _much_ heavier than they’ve made in a few years. It fits in that sweet spot of “dark and heavy” (relatively speaking) for moody tone with definition.

I also just nabbed a 50’s A 20 at 2140 g that’s more complex in the highs, but with a dark overall tone, same deal.
I guess 2500g is on the heavy side for a traditional jazzy ride, but I don't consider that anywhere near heavy in general for a 22". I would say above 3000g is true heavy.

I have a 22" Kerope Medium that is 2560g and it still feels and plays like a lighter cymbal. It would never cut on any of the louder rock gigs I do. Attack is too mellow.

Personally, *generally*, I've found that particular 22s between 2600g and 3000g are the sweet spot for having a mix of liveliness, darkness and projection in louder music. Above that, it gets too pingy for my taste.
 

jaymandude

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I guess 2500g is on the heavy side for a traditional jazzy ride, but I don't consider that anywhere near heavy in general for a 22". I would say above 3000g is true heavy.

I have a 22" Kerope Medium that is 2560g and it still feels and plays like a lighter cymbal. It would never cut on any of the louder rock gigs I do. Attack is too mellow.

Personally, *generally*, I've found that particular 22s between 2600g and 3000g are the sweet spot for having a mix of liveliness, darkness and projection in louder music. Above that, it gets too pingy for my taste.
I have a Dark Medium that’s great, it really captures the heavy old k vibe ( I have 5 old ones, 20’s and 18’s) but I can’t crash it as well and this newer Paiste Modern Essentials that I’ve been using.
 

bongomania

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I guess 2500g is on the heavy side for a traditional jazzy ride, but I don't consider that anywhere near heavy in general for a 22". I would say above 3000g is true heavy.
That’s why I said “relatively speaking”. Agop sigs now weigh hundreds of grams less than we’d consider normal for their diameter. The super thin washy dark sound OP complained about is typical for sigs at the weight you’ll find these days.
 

Topsy Turvy

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That’s why I said “relatively speaking”. Agop sigs now weigh hundreds of grams less than we’d consider normal for their diameter. The super thin washy dark sound OP complained about is typical for sigs at the weight you’ll find these days.
I have a 22” Istanbul Agop Signature that weighs around 2200. It sounds absolutely fantastic....as a crash. It simply doesn’t work as a ride unless it is a completely acoustic situation. I have been looking at Signature that weighs around 2600-2800. For me, beyond 2800 grams is when rides get too pingy.
 

Topsy Turvy

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I guess 2500g is on the heavy side for a traditional jazzy ride, but I don't consider that anywhere near heavy in general for a 22". I would say above 3000g is true heavy.

I have a 22" Kerope Medium that is 2560g and it still feels and plays like a lighter cymbal. It would never cut on any of the louder rock gigs I do. Attack is too mellow.

Personally, *generally*, I've found that particular 22s between 2600g and 3000g are the sweet spot for having a mix of liveliness, darkness and projection in louder music. Above that, it gets too pingy for my taste.
My complaint with nearly every Kerope ride I have played is that they lack definition and are basically too damn washy. I like the concept but not the execution.
 

charlesm

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My complaint with nearly every Kerope ride I have played is that they lack definition and are basically too damn washy. I like the concept but not the execution.
Not sure how you're using them, but these are not really cymbals for situations above moderate volume. In the right context, they can be great. I use mine often with a piano-based modern-jazz group and they really excel in that setting.

Sometimes, if needed, I will use a little tape to dry them out a bit. Helps immensely.

However, I would be all in favor of Z developing a few more 22" ride cymbals that combine dark qualities, presence, openness and responsiveness with an overall DRY, clear stick attack. Maybe unlathed or minimal lathing. 22" Special Dry or Organic?
 

Topsy Turvy

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Not sure how you're using them, but these are not really cymbals for situations above moderate volume. In the right context, they can be great. I use mine often with a piano-based modern-jazz group and they really excel in that setting.

Sometimes, if needed, I will use a little tape to dry them out a bit. Helps immensely.

However, I would be all in favor of Z developing a few more 22" ride cymbals that combine dark qualities, presence, openness and responsiveness with an overall DRY, clear stick attack. Maybe unlathed or minimal lathing. 22" Special Dry or Organic?
I’m talking about rock/pop situations, since that is what the OP was talking about.

I can definitely see Keropes working in lower volume situations, though.
 

AtlantaDrumGuy

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I had a 22” Istanbul Agop Traditional, which is very similar to your Bosporus. In my opinion, cymbals like this are - generally speaking- way too damn washy. I sold mine off after hearing nothing but a roar of wash when another drummer (with decent touch) sat in for a song. No thanks. There has to be a happy balance where you get some stick and some wash.

I also want to say, I personally don’t like the sound of Zildjian As or A Customs. They may stand the test of time for some, but I am not a fan.
I agree. Modern Ks just sound better, and many are quite versatile regardless of what others may say. I prefer old As when it comes to A families of cymbals.
 

charlesm

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I’m talking about rock/pop situations, since that is what the OP was talking about.

I can definitely see Keropes working in lower volume situations, though.
Gotcha. Yeah, not ideal for rock/pop.
 

Mongrel

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I just picked up an Istanbul Mehmet "Onurhan" 21" ride.

As it was an Amazon "impulse buy" I had no idea what I was getting and was pleasantly surprised by how dark yet defined the response is. Sits well below my 21" Sabian HHRB dry ride pitch wise, but has a nice clear "tah\ting" without being a "ping"....lol, if that makes any sense? Around 2800g I think?

It is like their "Sultan" series only the edge is unlathed instead of the bow.
 

JazzDrumGuy

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I think my gigging Bos Trad. is 2700g. To me that's heavy. But it has a nice ping and definition for outdoor gigs even when not miked. I was using a K Con 20 medium and that was fine but had too much wash. I can get more of a ping with the Bos yet pull wash too without crash riding it. The bell is the bell - loud and clear when needed.

I agree about Keropes - I love the concept, patina, etc., and I have owned the 19 and 20 (sold both) and I have a like new 22 for sale, but they are more washy and muddy sounding. If there was a cymbal between the Keropes and K Cons, now that would be sweet.

My house kit has a set of 15" Kerope hats that are fantastic jazz hats, though........whereas I have owned 3 sets of K Con 14" hats and sold two and the 3rd set is also for sale - I just can't get them to sound good.
 

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