soundwise what's the diff btwn a 8x12 and 9x12 tom?

Seb77

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Rototoms and timbales are single-headed, different story.

I was just thinking, maybe we're all right, but it depends on the head tension and playing volume. With a low-tuned drum hit hard, a deeper shell might produce a longer decay. On the other hand, when you play softly, a deeper drum doesn't really speak, so this might result in a shorter decay. With high (bop) tuning (that's what I'm familiar with), sustain is shorter with both deeper and shallow shells, and that's where shallower shells in my expereince have a relatively longer decay.
There are some scientific texts on this, but I don't remeber where I read (about) them.
 

wolfereeno

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Rototoms definitely don't have a lot of sustain.

But anyway, I guess what I'm seeing is that there is no science, lore or recent enlightenment showing an 8x12 is an odd sounding size :)

It is strange though how much time (and money) I've spent wrestling getting my 12's to sound good, where the 10's and 13's are almost impossible to tune bad.
 

ThomFloor

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Rototoms and timbales are single-headed, different story.

I was just thinking, maybe we're all right, but it depends on the head tension and playing volume.
The examples were 'all other factors the same" - same heads, energy of impact etc. In other words there is no 'it depends' in that case.
Try this example - is there more echo, or resonance, or longer decay if you shout in a large empty auditorium versus in a small closet? (yes same, volume dB of shout)
 

Elvis

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I've seen a few jazz sized kits with a 9x12 tom on reverb. I've played many kits with 8x12 and 9x13 but not that size.

On two good kits I've owned over years, I found a 9x13 easier to tune than an 8x12, where I had to constantly fight to get the 8x12 to sound less dead. I also notice on my current kit the 8x10 drum is easier to tune than an 8x12. I realize there could be all sorts of reasons for this. Assume I can tune well, use good heads, and sometimes use iso mounts.

But I was just wondering what the logic of a 9x12 was?

thx!
To sell more drums by keeping up with (then) current trends.
When the size came into vogue, it was actually a shrink down from the size that had ruled for at least 10 years prior...12x10.
When I sold Premier, they called that depth a "Quick" size.
Sonically, while you'd be hard pressed to notice it, the deeper depth yields a darker sound with an increased presence of the drum's resonance.
I've been told that it will also lower the pitch the drum ever so slightly, due to the fractionally longer amount of time it takes the wave to reach the resonant side head.
This is likely the "dark" quality you (may) pick up.


Elvis
 

cribbon

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Thx all. I've owned 6 sets in my lifetime with an 8x12, mostly out of habit.

But I've noticed, for the 4 kits I've owned that have alternate options of either a 9x13 or a 8x10, those drums have consistently been easier to tune and get a good ring (high or low) than the 8x12's. And the kits are good: Gretsch RB & SSB, 70's Ludwig, and a custom Keller kit from Precision. I spend more time trying diff tuning, heads, rims mounts, etc with the 8x12's than the other sizes.
I've played a 5x10, 7x10 & 8x10 and a 5x12, 8x12, 9x12 & 10x12. In the 10s, I've found the 5x10 surprisingly rich and tuneful - it really sings, but I don't use it as a single tom. Twelve-wise, the 8x12 is my favorite sounding tom of any size/depth. I've never had any problems tuning it up/down/high/low or six ways to Sunday - to my ears, it has the richest tone of any size tom.

If I could only use one tom for any/every gig, 8x12 would be it. Currently when I use two racks, I go with the 5x10 & 5x12 - they're easy to position over any size kick and they contrast nicely with the floor tom. If I'm only using one rack, it's usually the 8x12.


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Seb77

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is there more echo, or resonance, or longer decay if you shout in a large empty auditorium versus in a small closet?
Thanks for explaining your theory, hadn't thought of it that way - but that's not how a drum works (other than the "basketball" reflections you get in deeper drums).

I've played a 5x10, 7x10 & 8x10 and a 5x12, 8x12, 9x12 & 10x12. In the 10s, I've found the 5x10 surprisingly rich and tuneful - it really sings,
How can this be? With a tabletop-short sound ;)
 
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cribbon

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Thanks for explaining your theory, hadn't thought of it that way - but that's not how a drum works (other than the "basketball" reflections you get in deeper drums).



How can this be? With a tabletop-short sound ;)
I'm not an engineer or physicist, I'm just telling you what I personally experienced on a gig a few weeks ago when I used all three of my 5"-deep toms (10,12,14 diameters). The 10 really sang more than the other two - it surprised me too. All toms had Pinstripes with zero rings on the top and Black Dots on the bottom and were closed mic'ed from the top with cheap-o Chinese mics (see gig pix below). Normally I only use one (12) or sometimes two of them (10,12 w/ a 14 floor) un-mic'ed. I only mic'ed them on this gig because the room was huge.

I mostly play classic rock and these drums really come into their own when I use Evans smooth white MX marching tenor batters on them. I'm not an Evans fan, but I am a huge fan of those MX smooth white heads; I think they sound much richer than Emperors and they're tough as nails.

Last week I played my usual 4-piece configuration (5x14 Blackro, 20 kick, 5x12 & 12x14 floor - only mic'ing the kick) with those MX batters. A singer from another band stayed all night to listen and sat in with us on a song. When he was leaving he remarked on how great he thought the drums sounded.

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ThomFloor

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Thanks for explaining your theory, hadn't thought of it that way - but that's not how a drum works (other than the "basketball" reflections you get in deeper drums).
Well.....its not my 'theory', its physics. Not 'basketball reflections' either..... Overtones, harmonic interferences, are dominated by the space the sound wave propagates through....once the waveform is produced by a drum head of a given diameter/tension.
Your original point was "a shallower drum has a longer decay". Ever read peoples posts where they say 'my floor tom rings for days'? That's a long decay.
Nobody says my "10 inch tom rings for days". There's a physical reason the drums in the 1980's (like 13 x 12 toms) sounded deep the way they do.
 
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