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Stickinthemud Patina Challenge Big Reveal, Winners, and Comments

stickinthemud

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If some of you sense a disturbance in the force today, it's because, I, in the interest of personal enlightenment, purchased a "vintage" 20" Zildjian ride and, after making a recording of it with the patina intact, proceeded to clean it shiny as a new penny.

For those of you who have not loaded your shotgun and started driving in the general direction of Grapevine, Texas, I offer this challenge. I recorded three tracks. One with patina, one clean, and one clean with a moongel strategically placed. Can you tell me which is which?

The recordings were made with an AKG Perception 200 mic with an identical set-up, and are raw and unprocessed. Here are links:

https://soundcloud.com/stickinthemud57/2a-1
https://soundcloud.com/stickinthemud57/1a-1
https://soundcloud.com/stickinthemud57/3a-1

OK, hotshots, tell me which one is the uncleaned, cleaned, and cleaned with a small piece of Moongel placed about a few inches back from the bell. Did I scramble the files so the number order would not provide a hint? I'll never tell.

Once the responses start to taper off, I will reveal the answers and provide my non-expert analysis.

NOTE - WHEN REFERENCING THESE, USE THE NUMBERS ASSOCIATED WITH THE FILES, NOT THE ORDER IN WHICH I PRESENTED THE LINKS. SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION!
 

TheBeachBoy

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I think no 1 is the cleaned one, no 2 has patina, and 3 has the moongel. I could be way off, though.

edited to clarify I'm using the file name, not the order they were posted.
 

gwbasley

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1 (2A-1) = Clean
2 ( 1A-1) = Moongel
3 (3A-1) = Dirty (Patina)

Edit: For file reference and clarity.
 

TDM

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I'm not going to say which is which in terms of patina, cleaned, and moongel, but here's what I hear:

(2) Brightest and most open of the bunch.
(1) Driest of the bunch, with a pleasant "dark" character and controlled decay.
(3) Somewhat like number (1), but not as musical / pleasant to my ear - sounds a bit thin and lacks body.

Edited to add: It seems some people are using the order of the links (first = 1, second = 2, third = 3) whereas others are using the number shown while the sample is playing (first = 2, second = 1, third = 3). I used the later. Translating my answer to "order of the links", it reads:

(1) Brightest and most open of the bunch.
(2) Driest of the bunch, with a pleasant "dark" character and controlled decay.
(3) Somewhat like number (2), but not as musical / pleasant to my ear - sounds a bit thin and lacks body.
 

1up2dn

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thanks for cleaning the cymbal...patina is highly overrated...and usually pretty disgusting...

3 is moongel

1 and 2 sound pretty much the same to me
 
Z

zenstat

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Edited to add: It seems some people are using the order of the links (first = 1, second = 2, third = 3) whereas others are using the number shown while the sample is playing (first = 2, second = 1, third = 3). I used the later.
I don't know how you can tell whether people are using the order of the links or the "name" of the file.

People who have posted responses are going to have to edit their responses and be very specific about which convention they are using. If not, the results will be entirely uncertain just because of a methodological (data collection) botch up*. May I suggest that we use the file name rather than the order in which the links are presented? Link order is 2-1-3.

The file names variously appear as

"1a-1" aka "1" aka "Patina Test 1"
"2a-1" aka "2" aka "Patina Test 2"
"3a-1" aka "3" aka "Patina Test 3"

depending on where you look. If the uncertainty does get sorted out I will happily analyze the answers and present the results in nice summary form. If the uncertainty doesn't get sorted out I won't have much enthusiasm for doing analysis.

* note: I claim the right to call this a botch up because I have a PhD and 30 years experience in research methodology and analysis. Which of course means I've made worse questionnaire design and coding botch ups myself over the years. :happy11:

Addendum: I'm still trying to listen to all 3 but soundcloud isn't cooperating today. It happens sometimes.

My guesses (and they will be guesses).

Patina Test 1 = moongel (less open but slightly out of tune with itself because the moongel disturbs the even vibration by placing more mass at one spot)

Patina Test 2 = patina (slighly less open but slightly more in tune with itself than using moongel)

Patina Test 3 = clean no moongel (most open and high frequencies)

Note also that I've long expressed the opinion that we won't be able to tell these sorts of differences apart measured as a population. Some of us will get it right, some of us will get it wrong. On average...well here are some old results from a blind listening test:

=====voice of original poster====
OK, I’ve got four different recorded cymbals here, compiled into one file.

All four weigh in within the same 100g range.
No tape or any other funny business.
Definitely not trying to be tricky here.

All might be A’s, all might be K’s, or there might be a mix.
Tell me what you think each one is, and why.

The revealing of the cymbals:

1. - 20 K. Zildjian (new stamp) 2121 grams
2. - 20 K. Zildjian (new stamp) 2095 grams
3. - 20 A. Zildjian (50s small stamp) 2024 grams
4. - 20 K. Zildjian (new stamp) 2130 grams
=====end original poster=====

=====My analysis======

Here is a nice way to visualize the data, by looking at the "footprint" of each cymbal according to the responses. For a K it should really be at the far right, for an A it should really be at the far left. What we actually see is:


cymbal 1: K got 5 A votes, 16 K votes:

________________AAAAA|KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK_____K

cymbal 2: K got 8 A votes, 12 K votes (1 abstain)

_____________AAAAAAAA|KKKKKKKKKKKK_________K

cymbal 3: A got 10 A votes, 11 K votes

A__________AAAAAAAAAA|KKKKKKKKKKK__________

cymbal 4: K got 13 A votes, 8 K votes

________AAAAAAAAAAAAA|KKKKKKKK_____________K

cymbal 1 is perceived as the most K-like.
cymbal 2 is slightly K-like
cymbal 3 is not the most A of all 4 even though it is an A!
cymbal 3 is pretty evenly spread in its "footprint" between A and K territory
cymbal 4 is the most A-like even though it is a K!

So there is indeed substantial confusion between these examples of A and K cymbals. There were 46 correct votes cast out of 83 votes: 55% right.
 

stickinthemud

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NOTE - WHEN REFERENCING THESE, USE THE NUMBERS ASSOCIATED WITH THE FILES, NOT THE ORDER IN WHICH I PRESENTED THE LINKS. SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION! THEY WILL BE PLAINLY NUMBERED AT THE SOUNDCLOUD SITE.

EDIT YOUR RESPONSES IF IT TURNS OUT YOU WERE USING SOME OTHER CONVENTION.

And thanks for the responses. This is turning out to be a lot of fun!
 

W&A Player

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I think:

patina test #1 is the best sounding, and I would guess that it has all of the patina.

patina test #3 is the second best sounding, and I would guess that it is cleaned up with no Moongel

patina test #2 is the least appealing to me, and I would guess that it is cleaned up with Moongel
 

red66charger

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1 = Clean with moongel
2 = Patina
3 = Clean

Either way, subtle differences to my ears...thus making a statement about the "legend of patina". Band name anyone?
 

stickinthemud

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So far, only one respondent is 100% correct.

EDIT - A clarification in a previous post makes this statement inaccurate.
 

bolweevil

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file 2-clean
file 1-patina
file 3-moongel

When I used to shine up my old A Constantinople 24" ride I could sure tell the difference soundwise.

Presently, I throw a half-slab of moongel near the bell of a 20" Sabian HH medium, and it makes it sound funkier and tighter (both in a good way). It's a very clean cymbal, so maybe I'm trying to sonically replicate a patina? Cool
 

stickinthemud

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bolweevil said:
file 2-clean
file 1-patina
file 3-moongel

When I used to shine up my old A Constantinople 24" ride I could sure tell the difference soundwise.

Presently, I throw a half-slab of moongel near the bell of a 20" Sabian HH medium, and it makes it sound funkier and tighter (both in a good way). It's a very clean cymbal, so maybe I'm trying to sonically replicate a patina? Cool
Interesting. That's what I did here. 1/2 piece, about 2" from the bell seemed to most closely approximate the patina (to my wretchedly insensitive ears, that is). Still the patina'd cymbal has a distinctive sound.

OK, everyone, give me three more guesses, then I will post screen captures of sections of the waveforms, labelled correctly.
 

theneonguy

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Did you use a mechanical device to strike the cymbal each time with exactly the same force, and using the same stick? Otherwise you might have struck the cymbal with a stick, using your hand, and surely were unable to strike with precisely the same force each time, invalidating the "test." Sorry...
Do you mind coming by the studio and cleaning all my cymbals?
 

Seb77

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My guess:
1a1: moongel, shortest, sounds stifled
2a1: after cleaning, brightest
3a1: before cleaning
 

bongomania

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2) Clean
1) Dirty
3) Moongel

FWIW I did not read any of the other posts yet. Will do that now.
 


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