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Thanks to the Fred Below thread…

maxb2k

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There’s so many ways to play a shuffle. . . .
Stylistically this reminds me of a Sam Lay groove. He played that skip beat, or dotted eight note combined with back beat. It feels very much a shuffle to me.
 

BennyK

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We used to call that a business man's bounce , every body knew exactly what approach to take , and here's the big " IF " -

If you were in with the right players .

More rock orientated players would invariably articulate a humpty dumpty feel -

Hump-tee-Dump -tee Hump-tee-dump-tee etc .

you got memphis shuffles,flat tire ( luois Jordan), chicago shuffles , new orleans shuffles , texas ( scrub) shuffles and it wouldn't be a bad idea to do some homework before entering the sometimes cruel , unforgiving arena of the bandstand . When learning a second or third language, it pays to grasp the importance of differing inflections, syntax,grammar and phonetics peculiar to the dialect . This may be one of the reasons that drum loops are often unsuccessful in capturing the nuanced variations of shuffle beats . F. Below, in that video , was surrounded by players who had mastered the genre and he could really shine . Everybody leaning on everybody else .
 
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Tubwompus

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I hate that I’m hammering on my own thread when it was originally intended to be more of a survey-ish-type dealio, it’s just that the conversation has got me thinking about more and more stuff…

I’ve always been aware of the somewhat nebulous aspect of some of the drum things. The possibly varying definitions from player to player of a shuffle is one. I remember an argument between a bass player and guitar player about whether, “Some Kind Of Wonderful” by Grand Funk is a shuffle. Bass player‘s take was yes but guitar guy said no, a shuffle is more like, “Pride And Joy” by SRV. It got kinda heated, actually, which surprised me coz they were both sober at the time. Haha

Anyway, thinking about the “nebulous factor“ brought another example to my mind. For whatever reason, I’ve wound up in a metric ton of blues situations so far in my life (to call it a career would be pretentious in my case). More than once, blues guitar guys have mentioned playing “against” the drummer. Like, “Ok, on this one, I need to play “against” you.” Or, “Yeah, on that song, Sighted Orange Washington (or whoever) played against the drummer.”

At first, I thought that was kind of a negative thing, but it turns out that it’s just a term for a certain way of playing. But I sure couldn’t tell ya what it is, nor could any of the guitar guys who mentioned it and I asked them about it after. They all just said, “I dunno, but that’s what it is.”

And then there’s what I personally consider to be the most mysterious bit regarding shuffle-type stuff, and that’s playing‘ “in the cracks”. Not quite shuffling but not quite straight 8th’s either. Some guys just do it naturally, like Charlie Watts but other guys, like Steve Gadd, can do it on command. Nutty.

Whew! Sorry for the diatribe.
I’d better skip the Ethiopian coffee before posting from now on.
 

Tornado

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I hate that I’m hammering on my own thread when it was originally intended to be more of a survey-ish-type dealio, it’s just that the conversation has got me thinking about more and more stuff…

I’ve always been aware of the somewhat nebulous aspect of some of the drum things. The possibly varying definitions from player to player of a shuffle is one. I remember an argument between a bass player and guitar player about whether, “Some Kind Of Wonderful” by Grand Funk is a shuffle. Bass player‘s take was yes but guitar guy said no, a shuffle is more like, “Pride And Joy” by SRV. It got kinda heated, actually, which surprised me coz they were both sober at the time. Haha

Anyway, thinking about the “nebulous factor“ brought another example to my mind. For whatever reason, I’ve wound up in a metric ton of blues situations so far in my life (to call it a career would be pretentious in my case). More than once, blues guitar guys have mentioned playing “against” the drummer. Like, “Ok, on this one, I need to play “against” you.” Or, “Yeah, on that song, Sighted Orange Washington (or whoever) played against the drummer.”

At first, I thought that was kind of a negative thing, but it turns out that it’s just a term for a certain way of playing. But I sure couldn’t tell ya what it is, nor could any of the guitar guys who mentioned it and I asked them about it after. They all just said, “I dunno, but that’s what it is.”

And then there’s what I personally consider to be the most mysterious bit regarding shuffle-type stuff, and that’s playing‘ “in the cracks”. Not quite shuffling but not quite straight 8th’s either. Some guys just do it naturally, like Charlie Watts but other guys, like Steve Gadd, can do it on command. Nutty.

Whew! Sorry for the diatribe.
I’d better skip the Ethiopian coffee before posting from now on.


I'm clearly more loose with what I call a shuffle than maybe most. That's OK, people can think I'm wrong. :). I tend to think of "shuffle" as a verb, something you DO, rather than a noun that describes a particular codified way of doing the verb. And I think it HAS to be, otherwise, how'd we get so many different shuffles...that are all shuffles? So take the James Gadson funk shuffle video above. I think he does a pretty good job of showing how those funk grooves he's known for are an evolution of other well known shuffles from the past. They don't stop shuffling just because he and others took it to a new place. So basically, I haven't heard a groove that shuffles that I wouldn't call a shuffle. :)
 

blueshadow

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The thread about the fabbalusly fabbalus Mr. Below developed an interesting byproduct (well, interesting to me, anyway) regarding different drummers’ perceptions of what is, or isn’t, a shuffle.

So I ask,
Regarding this cut,
YEP, it’s a shuffle?…and if so, why?
or…
NOPE, it t’aint?…and if so, why not?

Funny was thinking of starting this exact topic. Should be fun. I will have some examples
 

blueshadow

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Only time it’s wrong is if doesn’t work with the band. Guess that can go for more than just a shuffle. To paraphrase Todd Suchermann. “…all depends on how you stick it”. :)
 

Tubwompus

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Only time it’s wrong is if doesn’t work with the band. Guess that can go for more than just a shuffle. To paraphrase Todd Suchermann. “…all depends on how you stick it”. :)
Now there’s another nuance to consider.
Couple of examples are
- “Jailhouse Rock” where DJ’s playing straight 8th’s on his hihat but Scotty’s swinging that guitar riff.
- And then there’s the original “Johnny B. Goode” where Berry’s playing straight 8th’s while either Fred Below or Charles Connors (depending on who you ask) is playing the “trashcan” pattern (the swing ride rhythm over a backbeat).

I love the amount of possible subtleties where this subject is concerned.
 

Tubwompus

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Selection 2:

On my phone, I can’t really hear the hihat (typical Nashville) to tell if it’s a shuffle in 3 or not. But during the solos, anyway, if feels like a 3/4 shuffle to me, especially factoring in the rhythm guitar.
 

blueshadow

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On my phone, I can’t really hear the hihat (typical Nashville) to tell if it’s a shuffle in 3 or not. But during the solos, anyway, if feels like a 3/4 shuffle to me, especially factoring in the rhythm guitar.

Yep. That’s what I call it. Marty has another song I heard the other day that is a better example but I can’t think of the name
 

Tornado

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My first selection for debate:

I believe it’s Keltner on drums
Definitely a shuffle.
Selection 2:

It's shuffling, and it's a waltz. Waltz shuffle? But a shuffle, because it's shuffling and the band is shuffling.

Trick question since it’s called a shuffle in the title. Not many would pull this off and probably not what you would play on a pick up gig if a shuffle is called

Also a shuffle. He's making the shuffle with the ghost notes on the snare. Playing straight on the hats is no disqualifier. Then he plays a more traditional shuffle pattern on the ride without changing the overall feel.


IDK. I guess I'm going to call everything a shuffle. :)
 

blueshadow

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What about Dixie Chicken? I had to learn Garth Brooks version for a drum lesson years ago and it was Purdue shuffle for sure. The original is fairly straight notes played but with and implied swing or shuffle in my opinion
 

Tubwompus

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What about Dixie Chicken? I had to learn Garth Brooks version for a drum lesson years ago and it was Purdue shuffle for sure. The original is fairly straight notes played but with and implied swing or shuffle in my opinion
Yep, long-meter shuffle.
 


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