The old Cast vs Triple-flange debate

frankmott

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I'm 63. I started drumming at age 10 -- GASP -- Fifty-three years ago.
Over the years, i've danced back and forth with cast vs flange hoops. I confess that as a much younger man, I was as much attracted to their aesthetics as anything else. let's face it, they look imposing, important, and very cool.

I slowly started to realize that cast hoops really do choke a drum (more "focused" sound according to marketing departments) which is not entirely a bad thing.
Of course there are plenty of other factors; type of head, shell thickness, suspension mount, etc. I've gone through periods where I liked them on toms but not snares, the opposite, neither, or both. I've even tried to split the difference with heavier gauge (2.3/3.0mm, etc) flange hoops.
While we're probably splitting hairs in the grand scheme of it all, I've realized that beyond the physical characteristics of the actual drum, the style of music,and individual drumming personality also play a big role in whether or not cast-hoops are a good idea.

Having said all that, I decided that my old beater 402, which I've loved for years and played on hundreds of gigs, was too "bright" (too much ring), and didn't have a really satisfying rim-shot or side-stick. Call it COVID boredom. So I dug out an old beat-up cast batter hoop and popped it on.
YES! I'm back to cast-hoops (at least on the snare). Rim-shots pop. Side-stick is clear and distinct. And it took just enough of the ring out. ("Darker, more focused tone.") Then again, it could be that my hearing has just gotten that much worse.

Now, if I just had a gig I could try it on...
 
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dsop

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I slowly started to realize that cast hoops really do choke a drum (more "focused" sound according to marketing departments) which is not entirely a bad thing.
I don't think of it as choking; more of an attenuation of certain frequencies. I tend to prefer die cast everywhere, although my current drums only use them on snares.
 

Redbeard77

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As a Gretsch fan I'm partial to diecast hoops, but will admit they're not one size fits all. I think with snares especially it's good to experiment with different hoops on the batter side to see how they affect the drum's personality.
 

drummer5359

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This past March I picked up a Ludwig Classic maple snare that was fitted with a die cast on top. My first reflex was to order a triple flanged hoop, but I hesitated. I hesitated because it sounded great.

I lived with it a while and really liked it.

In August I gifted it to a buddy of mine. He has a few snares, but nothing quite like this.

He loves this drum, really loves it. He picked up another die cast top hoop to try on some of his other drums. Right now he is really feeling the love for batter side die cast hoops on snares. I can't disagree, it sure works on this drum.

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RIDDIM

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It depends on the sound you want. On the snare for example, if you like Roy Haynes's 60s sound, a la Now He Sings, go triple flanged. If you like something a bit darker, a la Elvin, Art, Phillly Joe or Art, maybe die cast would suit you better.
 

sixplymaple

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I just switched over to all Pearl Mastercast hoops on my toms and love them. I definitely like the sound better for my toms. The snare drum is a different story though. Cast hoops don’t sound good on every snare. I seem to favor them on metal snares. Diecast hoops are harder to tune as well.
 

Talktotommy

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As Frasier might say...I'm listening.
On a snare I would say it cleans up the sound. To me it does not affect volume or projection, more of a clear tone with less artifacts. Have had snares that they sounded great on and others that they sounded lousy on. You just have to experiment.
 

bellbrass

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I totally bought into the "die cast kills the sound" theory, until I built my own kit back in the late 90s. I used Keller 6-ply maple shells, had a pro cut the edges, and fitted them with Tama die-cast hoops. They sang for days. So - thick shell + die-cast = short notes and muted overtones; thin shell + die-cast = magic.
I've heard thin shells with the thinner 1.6mm triple-flanged hoops, and there was way too much ring for my ears.
 

exliontamer

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I suspect all of us were brainwashed at least a little bit by seeing those R.I.M.S. ads with cardboard boxes and living through an era where every company was trying to have the best proprietary suspension system. Fact is, I've played BIG R Rogers and Pearls where a gigantic metal arm is protruding into the shell like a robot sticking it's finger where it doesn't belong and they sounded fantastic. Moongel being the ubiquitous thing it is should speak volumes(no pun intended) to sustain and suspension not necessarily being the de facto desirable quality.
Also, drums that sustain too long are a surefire way to get a sound person to stick gates on your toms, and I'm guessing most people here like to play with dynamics. That said, it most certainly depends on the drum/heads/tuning/stick/touch/micing/room, but someone saying a die cast hoop kills a drum's tone is probably the same person that's more interested in talking about their system rather than the music they're listening to.
 
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mebeatee

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Toms I leave alone as stock hoops change from brand to brand...
Different story with snares....mix and match (I leave the bottoms hoops as is) For example I put a triple flanged top from a Ludwig snare onto a Gretsch snare and verse vicey...
If I was really really fanatical I would keep a different spare hoop in the drum case to change the sound if needed....nah.....just buy more drums.
bt
 

bpaluzzi

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I suspect all of us were brainwashed at least a little bit by seeing those R.I.M.S. ads with cardboard boxes and living through an era where every company was trying to have the best proprietary suspension system. Fact is, I've played BIG R Rogers and Pearls where a gigantic metal arm is protruding into the shell like a robot sticking it's finger where it doesn't belong and they sounded fantastic. Moongel being the ubiquitous thing it is should speak volumes(no pun intended) to sustain and suspension not necessarily being the de facto desirable quality.
Also, drums that sustain too long are a surefire way to get a sound person to stick gates on your toms, and I'm guessing most people here like to play with dynamics. That said, it most certainly depends on the drum/heads/tuning/stick/touch/micing/room, but someone saying a die cast hoop kills a drum's tone is probably the same person that's more interested in talking about their system rather than the music they're listening to.
Yup. The best-sounding drums I've ever owned are my new (to me) 80s Sonor Phonics. The tom mount is a massive prism of metal, sitting on a downtube that is over 1" thick, and extends well past the half-way vertical point of my 22" kick. The tom arm itself is about 3/4" thick, and again extends past the half-way mark of the 13" rack. Super thick shells, and it sings for days.
 

High on Stress

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I suspect all of us were brainwashed at least a little bit by seeing those R.I.M.S. ads with cardboard boxes and living through an era where every company was trying to have the best proprietary suspension system. Fact is, I've played BIG R Rogers and Pearls where a gigantic metal arm is protruding into the shell like a robot sticking it's finger where it doesn't belong and they sounded fantastic. Moongel being the ubiquitous thing it is should speak volumes(no pun intended) to sustain and suspension not necessarily being the de facto desirable quality.
Also, drums that sustain too long are a surefire way to get a sound person to stick gates on your toms, and I'm guessing most people here like to play with dynamics. That said, it most certainly depends on the drum/heads/tuning/stick/touch/micing/room, but someone saying a die cast hoop kills a drum's tone is probably the same person that's more interested in talking about their system rather than the music they're listening to.
I get what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree. But I do think there is a difference between muffling a head for stray overtones (or even to simply reduce the amount of tone and/or sustain coming off the head itself) versus shell resonance which may be negatively impacted by the mounting system. Two different variables (along with the hoop, bearing edge, head etc.) in my opinion, which might be why we see Moongel on a RIMS-mounted tom.
 

Dumpy

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There is an application for both. Die cast certainly excels on some drums. I tend to like die cast on snares best. But if I can find a set cheaply, I would try them on a kit. I imagine if I play with the tuning, I could coax a sound I liked from toms that had a set of die cast hoops.
 

jaymandude

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Hurts my hands, and I don’t play that hard. I don’t know how Vinnie C does it. But he’s a big dude. Same with Ferrone on that Bell Brass drum all night. Ouch
 

JimmySticks

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I put some heavy stick saver style hoops, which are similar to die cast, on my old MIJ kit and they damn near killed those poor thin luan shells!!! I think the 2 hoops weighed more than the tom shells themselves! :icon_lol:

Yeah, they came off pretty quickly and the light old triple flange hoops went back on. That experiment failed!
 


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