The "squashed" Zildjian bell

JDA

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Hi, I guess it is already written down somewhere but turns out is difficult to find. I see that most K Istanbul eras have somewhat different bell shapes. I wondered if the bells were shaped in all old K eras in "pre-modern turkish way" like it can be seen in The Cymbal Book https://books.google.de/books?id=bR4LAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=zildjian+k+istanbul+cupping&source=bl&ots=Flmqc8Z1i-&sig=ACfU3U2Ck0MdBNU0NhfghkCa1hCfU87yHw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiHl5LE6pLxAhXSGewKHbwqD6kQ6AEwEnoECAYQAw#v=onepage&q=zildjian k istanbul cupping&f=false = hammered into form by hand or if there was some kind of (non-electric) machine used ( /closer to the Keropes) and then the bells were just hammered afterwards. Thank you for your help.
Ok memorys coming back....It's a Picture on the wall behind...of a press machine (+/-)

It's in the picture behind on wall - two men standing- likely maybe an early 60s picture;

mikael2.jpg


mikael2.jpg

but I'll tell ya what; basically three eras of Cups
basically very consistent thru an era;
Old Stamps/ Intermediates/ New Stamps
-Old Stamps- low and wide
-Intermediates- almost A-like high and (almost press-like) full- shoulder
-New Stamps- back down to low & not quite-as wide as old stamp /less consistent on some rides
 
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JDA

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gorgeoussimo example ..of wide and low... old stampina..



in Allentown, Pa..


* Not tailored for modern drumset use Bid own utilize at own risks
you've been warned Chopin-breath..
 
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I must have missed this original discussion. I really like the "squashed" bell as well. It looks like the bell on my EAK 20" ride (wide, lower, flat.) But the EAK bell is higher than the old K examples that are pictured here in this thread.

That shape does seem to affect the ride sound in a positive way (to my ears.) It also produces a nice bell "clang" like I heard on older Blakey and Elvin recordings, as opposed to a more of a "ping." Ironically (I think) it also seems to be a similar bell to the bell on my Paiste 20" Light Dark, (which I LOVE!) but I digress.

A related subject is the K Con small bell prototypes (of which I have one) that PF did. I asked him (told him) that the bell on those was not the same bell as was on the old Mini Bell rides (popularized by Alan Dawson and Bob Moses.) I told him (respectfully) that I had one of those for a long time, and remembered the bell quite well, and it didn't look like this "new" Small bell that I have (but the new one still sounds GREAT!!!)

08F12C61-366D-4976-A9FB-2D243BCB42C6.jpeg

Don't be confused by the background of the grey of the throne.

What he told me was that the bell sizes can be disguised by the higher profile of the cymbal, and the transition between the bell and the bow. (I'm not sure if he used the word "bridge" but that's what I always call the bridge.)

2EE768DE-B099-4B1B-9BB6-DF803BDA3259.jpeg


He also said (I think) that there was (probably) a difference between the "Small Bell" dies that he used, and the "Mini Bell" dies of the past, and that they probably weren't the same.

I hope that adds "something" to the discussion!

All this bell talk reminds me of the last days of Cymbalholic. Weren't we in a big bell discussion back then Joe? The good ol' days.

MSG
 
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JDA

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"gimme da bridge gimme da bridge y'all!
 
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Seb77

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That shape does seem to affect the ride sound in a positive way (to my ears.) It also produces a nice bell "clang" like I heard on older Blakey and Elvin recordings, as opposed to a more of a "ping."
...
MSG
That clang... With the PJJ ride, which was the reason this thread was started, the bell has an almost "fire engine" quality to it :D Not really a compliment, but it does colour the ride sound in a nice way. I recently heard some Philly Joe recording with a similar sounding bell, not sure if it was the same cymbal as the model for the new Z, which I think can be heard on If I were a Bell (!).
 

JDA

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Hi, I guess it is already written down somewhere but turns out is difficult to find. I see that most K Istanbul eras have somewhat different bell shapes. I wondered if the bells were shaped in all old K eras in "pre-modern turkish way" like it can be seen in The Cymbal Book https://books.google.de/books?id=bR4LAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=zildjian+k+istanbul+cupping&source=bl&ots=Flmqc8Z1i-&sig=ACfU3U2Ck0MdBNU0NhfghkCa1hCfU87yHw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiHl5LE6pLxAhXSGewKHbwqD6kQ6AEwEnoECAYQAw#v=onepage&q=zildjian k istanbul cupping&f=false = hammered into form by hand or if there was some kind of (non-electric) machine used ( /closer to the Keropes) and then the bells were just hammered afterwards. Thank you for your help.
Response (refer to picture in post #21) from Drumaholic:

Joe:
I would say today that I was wrong about that. I believe that the cups were still being hammered in because (depending on the cymbal) you can see ripples in the bell that are a dead give away. Some are more than others. That hydraulic press was in fact used to bring the cymbal into its general shape but then even after that a lot of hand hammering was applied. That hammer which was similar to what Avedis Zildjian had already begun using since the mid 1950's (the Quincy drop hammer) and was a big labor saving device. I think that's why the new stamps play a little stiffer than the old stamps. Thery're not as buttery feeling as the old stamps.- Bill
 

ThomasL

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I think bells must be pressed in when the blank is hot, so a press for this purpose should be a quite massive thing? It's not like you're holding the glowing blank in your hands while operating it ;-)
 

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I think bells must be pressed in when the blank is hot, so a press for this purpose should be a quite massive thing? It's not like you're holding the glowing blank in your hands while operating it ;-)
That’s looks like a reciprocating power hammer behind the old man, not a hot forming die. For all the mythology, they weren’t stupid back then…

From my time in Zildjian R&D under the tutelage of Paul Francis, I believe the this cup shape that made it in the Dry Complex IIs came from a pair of old Constantinople-era orchestral cymbals, and not from Adam N. But these were released right as I was coming onboard at Z. I think the K Symphonics line were original trying to use this unique cup, but Paul couldn’t get them to work, so the Large cup was used instead. I used to know the names of all the cupping die sets, but been too long since I left…

Kenny W. cup was a direct lift from his beloved old K that was cracking up. This cup made it into Adam N. Renaissance ride.

Hi-Bell cup was a old K design, that was a very musical bell. Great band of frequencies from that cup.
 

mattr

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Memory banks are firing…. There was a Nussbaum cup set… so, whatever Francis has said on this in the past on this, that’s the story. Think I confused the two efforts, but the ~100 year Orchestrals they had hanging in the Orchestral Artist Vault had big flat cups.
 

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Wait wait what?

Response (refer to picture in post #21) from Drumaholic:

Joe:
I would say today that I was wrong... - Bill
That's a new one!

All kidding aside, this does feel like the old days, nice to see.
 

JDA

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Had to know how to Read Bill Oren.
Where's Izual at. saw him here the other day.
 
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Phantomlimb777

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I really like this bell shape, it gives the bells more clang, and separation from the stick sound, especially when using the shoulder of the stick.
 


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