The three different kinds of Paiste Formula 602 stamps

zenstat

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A few months back I took a breather from endless slaving over a hot Avedis stamp and went back to my Paiste 602 research work with fresh eyes. I noticed that there are three different sorts of 602 stamps.

Solid:



Mixed:




Outline:



The written description of my surprise and what I currently know is here on my updated Paiste research page:

http://black.net.nz/paiste.html

(note if you don't see the 3 stamps refresh your browser -- you have the older page in cache on your machine)

So what's next? Well those of your who have 602s from the pre serial and black label period could let me know which of the three stamps each cymbal has and the serial number if it has one. If anybody reports Mixed or Outline stamps and you don't have a serial number we might have a chat about any other identifying features you might have on it.

This doesn't apply to blue labels or reissues, of course. Only the older ones. But it does very much apply to 602 Dark Rides and Transitional Dark Rides (the ones with the top part of the 602 stamp but missing the words "Formula 602" at the bottom). Like this:



which we can now see is a Mixed based on the location of Trade.

And a special prize to anybody who comes up with a 4th version of the stamp. Or 5th. :happy11:

Thanks in advance.
 

Fayray

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Hey Steve, obviously I hadn't noticed this either. But I've now looked through my 602s and can tell you that my pre-serial 20" ride is solid, my 18" ride has no visible ink stamps and a serial number of 410861 and has the outline logo. And my BL SE 14" hats also have the outline logo and a serial of 623635. I've got some pre-serial hats but they are in the studio so I'll check when I'm next there. Do you want photo evidence?
 

zenstat

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Thanks Andrew. I don't feel there is a need for pics as photo evidence. I've got a few pics of each sort, and I think that now the differences are documented they can be identified easily enough.

Once I get a bit more data rolling in we might (fingers crossed) get some chronology out of it. But it might also just turn out to be "sometimes they used this stamp, sometimes they used that one" within the same year. We'll see. It will be added to my Paiste Research web page as it is done, and I'll also post notice here and in other places I've asked (Cymbalholic and Paiste-Only).

Oh and thanks again for contributing to half of my new favorite pair of hats. Some other brand called "Avedis" or something. :happy11:
 

Fayray

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I'm really glad you like the old A hi-hat. So it's not just a pretty stamp?

I've come to appreciate 602s almost by accident. My pre-serial 20" ride is my absolute favorite ride. I've picked up 4 pairs of hats, 2x 20" rides, 1x 18" ride and 2x 16" rides all with kits I've bought. Never had a crash yet though.
 

red66charger

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I just picked up a sweet pair of pre-serial 602 14" hats yesterday. I lament the lack of quality vintage drum gear available for sale in my area, but finally something cool showed up...Paiste B-20! I thought these felt very light when I checked them out, but when I weighed them they seem slightly heavier than some I've seen (888/966).

It's hard for me to see what you see in these stamps so I took a pic of mine. Both cymbals have the same stamp.
 

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Jdrum

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Nice thread. I like these kinds of dorky detail discussions. Speaking of 602's, this is something I noticed on my pre-serial 15" 602 SE hats. If you can't read them in the photo, there are 2 sets of numbers stamped. R7070 and below that is 7005. It's not this first pair of pre-serial hats I've seen like this. I more of a 2002 guy so I only have average knowledge about 602's. I've never read or seen any info on what these numbers might me. Early date coding? :dontknow: These have the date stamp shown in the first photo in the original post.
 

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zenstat

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red66charger said:
I just picked up a sweet pair of pre-serial 602 14" hats yesterday. I lament the lack of quality vintage drum gear available for sale in my area, but finally something cool showed up...Paiste B-20! I thought these felt very light when I checked them out, but when I weighed them they seem slightly heavier than some I've seen (888/966).

It's hard for me to see what you see in these stamps so I took a pic of mine. Both cymbals have the same stamp.
That's the Mixed stamp (as I'm calling it). Trade is under the E of PAISTE, and the Forumula 602 is in the outline font.

I've got weights on around 125 pairs of 602 hats (and another 40 of the Sound Edge type) you yours do seem a little heavier than the average, but I haven't actually done the proper statistical analysis. I'll get to it pretty soon...

but in the meantime my pre serial 602 Sound Edge 14" hats are about 875g over 975g.
 

zenstat

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Jdrum said:
Nice thread. I like these kinds of dorky detail discussions. Speaking of 602's, this is something I noticed on my pre-serial 15" 602 SE hats. If you can't read them in the photo, there are 2 sets of numbers stamped. R7070 and below that is 7005. It's not this first pair of pre-serial hats I've seen like this. I more of a 2002 guy so I only have average knowledge about 602's. I've never read or seen any info on what these numbers might me. Early date coding? :dontknow: These have the date stamp shown in the first photo in the original post.
Interesting. Those numbers could represent identification numbers which a school board puts on property, or they could be dates in some coded form. I've seen a few things like that either stamped under the bells, or in some cases etched rather than pressed in.

The only "we think they are date stamps" I know about appear under the bells of some pre serial 602s and take the form

"1-72" or "2-72" or "3-72" or "4-72" or "5-72" or "6-72".

We believe these represent m-yy (month year) and Paiste put them on at the factory. There are a few examples of each month and this is one of the reasons we think that serial numbers began in the later half of 1972. There aren't any 602s with serial numbers which have the date codes under the bells, and there aren't any reports of any going past June (as in no "7-72" or later). Of course, that can change if new information appears. Sorry I haven't got an image of one of these handy. I'll add it in if I find one. The "we think they are date stamps" look more like they were etched rather than pressed in. But they all look quite similar which is why we think they were put there by Paiste (or perhaps an importing agent?). Whoever did it was consistent in style so a number of 602 cymbals passed through the same hands at some point.



And the state of patents (another way to judge the year if you look up which patents were granted when in the different countries)



And the Outline stamp is what appears on these 15" hat SE hats:





In my searches I also found an example of an engraved "12" but not one of the "we think they are date stamps". Notice this is a very different engraving style.

 

red66charger

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zenstat said:
I just picked up a sweet pair of pre-serial 602 14" hats yesterday. I lament the lack of quality vintage drum gear available for sale in my area, but finally something cool showed up...Paiste B-20! I thought these felt very light when I checked them out, but when I weighed them they seem slightly heavier than some I've seen (888/966).

It's hard for me to see what you see in these stamps so I took a pic of mine. Both cymbals have the same stamp.
That's the Mixed stamp (as I'm calling it). Trade is under the E of PAISTE, and the Forumula 602 is in the outline font.

I've got weights on around 125 pairs of 602 hats (and another 40 of the Sound Edge type) you yours do seem a little heavier than the average, but I haven't actually done the proper statistical analysis. I'll get to it pretty soon...

but in the meantime my pre serial 602 Sound Edge 14" hats are about 875g over 975g.
Good stuff Steve. Thanks! I see it now. Always appreciate your effort on this research. Now I need to find another medium ride since my buddy absconded with mine while I was in vacation earlier this month. He fell in love with it and I knew it was meant for him.
 

atomicmorganic

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My 20 does not have the word "trade" on there at all. Under the bell are the numbers 4110 scratched in very small. (about 1/8" tall. What do I have here? After a closer look, I can see the word "mark", but the word "trade" is not there. The stamp does look more like the first example that you show though.
 

zenstat

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atomicmorganic said:
My 20 does not have the word "trade" on there at all. Under the bell are the numbers 4110 scratched in very small. (about 1/8" tall. What do I have here? After a closer look, I can see the word "mark", but the word "trade" is not there. The stamp does look more like the first example that you show though.
Any chance of a picture of the stamp? It might just be that the TRADE didn't press in very well. You can see that the MARK in my first example (the solid version) isn't legible by itself. There is variation in the way the same die stamp is pressed in from cymbal to cymbal. I'd love to see a picture of yours.

And the 4110 scratched in? Again a picture would help. Plenty of people add numbers and letters as identification to their cymbals, and thankfully most do it discretely under the bell. As a general rule, if we spot one or two cymbals out of 1,000 on eBay with similar looking scratching or etching that's probably an individual adding some identification. If we see 25* different cymbals over some years on eBay with very similar "handwriting style" in the scratching or etching or pressed markings, then maybe we're looking at somebody's collection which has been split up over the years. Or maybe marking for some sort of an organization. I mentioned school boards before since schools have cymbals for the music department, but it could be any sort of organization. And of course Paiste or their importing agents are another organization. And I remember one (non Paiste) sale where the previous owners Social Security Number was under the bell! Presumably the SSN was put there in kinder gentler times before concern about identity theft. :dontknow:

Yes it is very nerdy to even consider this stuff, but I figure if we don't look we won't see. And if there are more people out there interested and looking we are more likely to turn up further information. As long as we don't spend too much time looking and not enough time playing. :happy11:

* note: I made up the 25 on the spot as an example. I didn't count up the entries in my database.
 

bonzoleum

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I've never noticed the different 602 embossed versions!
Paiste used the Giant Beat embossed stamp on the Sound Creations early on, and I have seen a couple different versions of that stamp of original Giant Beats.
 

redninja6r

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Hi! I don't think I've posted here before, but read this with interest. I was just doing research out of curiosity on my Formula 602. I bought it used in 1986 randomly, liking the sound very much. It is a 21" Ride, and though not marked anywhere, I believe it is a "Heavy" as it IS very heavy. I has no serial numbers, and the stamp is like the first one in the original post. I guess I'm lucky to have it, being quite old (40-50 years maybe??) and it has no cracks and 0 keyhole. Anyway, here is the stamp

 

bonzoleum

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zenstat said:
Nice thread. I like these kinds of dorky detail discussions. Speaking of 602's, this is something I noticed on my pre-serial 15" 602 SE hats. If you can't read them in the photo, there are 2 sets of numbers stamped. R7070 and below that is 7005. It's not this first pair of pre-serial hats I've seen like this. I more of a 2002 guy so I only have average knowledge about 602's. I've never read or seen any info on what these numbers might me. Early date coding? :dontknow: These have the date stamp shown in the first photo in the original post.
Interesting. Those numbers could represent identification numbers which a school board puts on property, or they could be dates in some coded form. I've seen a few things like that either stamped under the bells, or in some cases etched rather than pressed in.

The only "we think they are date stamps" I know about appear under the bells of some pre serial 602s and take the form

"1-72" or "2-72" or "3-72" or "4-72" or "5-72" or "6-72".

We believe these represent m-yy (month year) and Paiste put them on at the factory. There are a few examples of each month and this is one of the reasons we think that serial numbers began in the later half of 1972. There aren't any 602s with serial numbers which have the date codes under the bells, and there aren't any reports of any going past June (as in no "7-72" or later). Of course, that can change if new information appears. Sorry I haven't got an image of one of these handy. I'll add it in if I find one. The "we think they are date stamps" look more like they were etched rather than pressed in. But they all look quite similar which is why we think they were put there by Paiste (or perhaps an importing agent?). Whoever did it was consistent in style so a number of 602 cymbals passed through the same hands at some point.



And the state of patents (another way to judge the year if you look up which patents were granted when in the different countries)



And the Outline stamp is what appears on these 15" hat SE hats:





In my searches I also found an example of an engraved "12" but not one of the "we think they are date stamps". Notice this is a very different engraving style.

I have had several 602s over the years with the 'x-72' go thru my hands-most if not all 3-72 if I recall.

Zen, there a few different of the 'no model listed' Paiste stamps (found on GBs and SCs) if you have time to look into that.
 

zenstat

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I've slowed way down on Paiste research while I try and finish up my first round of Avedis and old K price tracking. It's a bit embarrassing because things like my 602/Sound Creation price tables are in dire need of modernizing. But it might be more months before I can get back into the Paiste stuff. I will get back to it eventually.

Note this hasn't stopped my buying and playing more Paiste cymbals. Just writing about them. :happy11:
 

Drum Doctor

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Zen, am I correct in that the Star in the middle photo stamp has only 6 trailing lines as opposed to seven in the first and 3rd stamps? or maybe the 7th line is there and this example was just a much lighter impressed stamping?

(Hope this hasn't already been mentioned in this thread- trying to squeeze this in between actually doing my job "at work")...........
 


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