those crazy cats from A&F are at it again

bongomania

DFO Master
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
4,432
Reaction score
1,533
Location
Portland, OR
“It cost 10 million dollars to design a car and build a factory, and we made 10 cars, so each car cost a million dollars, so that’s a fair price.”

I’m also in small instrument manufacturing, and there are a lot of up front costs you have to amortize over a long time and a lot of production.
 

JDA

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
17,037
Reaction score
5,776
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
Those s'water sets seem Minus the Snare.
Whats the Spizzichino snares--oops- AF snares run..
 

dale w miller

Very well Known Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2016
Messages
886
Reaction score
689
Location
Ocean, NJ
One of the absolute best posts I've read on this forum in a long long time.
Thank you.

“It cost 10 million dollars to design a car and build a factory, and we made 10 cars, so each car cost a million dollars, so that’s a fair price.”

I’m also in small instrument manufacturing, and there are a lot of up front costs you have to amortize over a long time and a lot of production.
See Lamborghini.

I know that, which is why I decided to not include them in the price. Upstart cost such as buying tools I needed and renting a space were not included either.
 
Last edited:

dale w miller

Very well Known Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2016
Messages
886
Reaction score
689
Location
Ocean, NJ
We should take the time and understand what is going on here. If we did, it would make quite the impact.

These are Sweetwater prices.


A&F Drum Company Field 3-piece Shell Pack - Triple Whiskey

$ 3225.00


View attachment 421712

A&F Triple Whisky Maple Field Kit 3-piece Shell Pack Features:
  • Maple shells a hand-rubbed whisky stain
  • Classic sizing packs a powerful nearfield response
  • Red stripe wood hoops maximize depth and power
  • Features A&F's homegrown heirloom hardware: Patented Patina brass lugs, old-school bass spurs, and field drum classic claw hooks
  • Sizes (depth x diameter): 8" x 13" tom, 14" x 16" floor tom, 12" x 26" bass drum



A&F Drum Company Mahogany Club 3-piece Shell Pack

$ 3825.00




View attachment 421713



A&F Mahogany Club 3-piece Shell Pack Features:
  • Sizes (depth x diameter): 8" x 12" tom, 14" x 16" floor tom, 14" x 22" bass drum
  • Each shell built from 7 thin plies of mahogany and poplar
  • Crowned with 90° inner/rounded outer edges and natural mahogany hoops
  • Warm, dry, fat, punchy tone
  • Clean translation unplugged or miked up
  • Patented Patina hardware provides an heirloom look
  • Hand-cut bearing edges optimize head response
  • Patented dual-sided round lugs
  • Comes stock with A&F-branded Remo heads
  • Handcrafted in Austin, Texas


A&F Drum Company Copper 3-piece Shell Pack


$ 5525.00



View attachment 421716

A&F Copper 3-piece Shell Pack Features:
  • Sizes (depth x diameter): 8" x 13" tom, 14" x 16" floor tom, 14" x 22" bass drum
  • Thin, handcrafted copper shells
  • Single-flanged brass hoops
  • Lightweight and packed with mature tone
  • Remo heads on hand-cut 45s
  • Sounds great unplugged or miked up
  • Patented Patina hardware yields an heirloom look
  • Entirely handcrafted in Austin, Texas









Ludwig Classic Maple Pro Beat 24 Shell Pack - Vintage Black Oyster Pearl


$ 2199.00


View attachment 421715



Ludwig Classic Maple Pro Beat 3-piece 24" Shell Pack Features:
  • 3-piece drum shell pack with 24" bass drum, 13" mounted tom, and 16" floor tom
  • 7-ply North American maple construction delivers a huge voice
  • 45-degree hand-sanded bearing edge transmits vibrations freely and accurately
  • RFST molding increases drum stability
  • Triad floor tom leg mounts facilitate easy packing into a hard case for secure transport
  • True to Ludwig's quality and tonal standards



Ludwig Legacy Classic Mahogany Pro Beat Shell Pack - Vintage Black Oyster

$ 3199.00

View attachment 421711
Ludwig Legacy Classic Mahogany 3-piece Shell Pack Features:
  • Calls back to Ludwig's 3-ply shells of the 1960s
  • Masterfully handcrafted in Monroe, North Carolina
  • Vintage-inspired shells and appointments: Keystone badges, Classic lugs
  • Mahogany shells boast classic warmth and powerful bass
  • Inner poplar core adds subtle cut and focus
  • 1" maple reinforcement rings strengthen shells and dry out overring
  • 30° inner-cut roundover bearing edges are a vintage-flavored foundation for heads
  • Shell sizes (depth x diameter): 9" x 13" tom, 16" x 16" floor tom, 14" x 24" bass drum


Ludwig Legacy Mahogany "Diamond Flash" Fab 3-piece Shell Pack - Charcoal Birds Eye Maple


$ 5199.00


View attachment 421714




Ludwig 110th Anniversary Legacy Mahogany Diamond Flash Fab 3-piece Shell Pack (Version 2) Features:
  • A special kit to mark Ludwig's 110th anniversary
  • Limited production — only 40 of this configuration available worldwide
  • Charcoal-finished bird's-eye maple veneers
  • Flash Pearl hand inlays
  • Legacy Mahogany shell recipe (mahogany + poplar) delivers classic warmth and modern cut
  • 1/4" maple reinforcement rings strengthen shells and dry out overring
  • 30° inner-cut roundover bearing edges are a vintage-flavored foundation for heads
  • Fab shell sizes (depth x diameter): 9" x 13" tom, 16" x 16" floor tom, 16" x 22" bass drum
  • Handcrafted in Monroe, North Carolina
Big company, small company. It makes sense to me.
 

JDA

DFO Star
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
17,037
Reaction score
5,776
Location
Jeannette, Pa.
Lamborghini is owned by Audi owned by VW owned by... Merkel..owned by..eu..owned by.
 

Paradiddle

DFO Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Messages
2,890
Reaction score
604
If I made an incredible car and charged a huge pile of money for it, some people would buy it, some people would want to buy it, and some people wouldn't buy it.

If I made a car that had crooked axles and maxed out at 45 mph and had no safety features and charged a huge pile of money for it, there'd be some people who'd defend it because it's expensive and not like the other cars out there. But others would call BS on the whole enterprise.

I saw an AK Black Beauty copy at DCP for $3000. It was gorgeous. I took a photo of it. I probably wouldn't buy it given how I think about and use my gear, but man, I could understand why someone would. The price lined up with both the exquisite craftsmanship and the features. This has been true of my experience of almost all other high end drums. Even if I personally don't want one, I can see and appreciate the craftsmanship and clarity of vision.
AK sure makes great stuff.

And I do agree that when you plonk down serious cash, the product should be perfect. I just got my Sugar Percussion cedar snare (from their Sterloid sale they did). It is an exceptionally well made instrument. I get to play it tomorrow, but the tap test sounded amazing. I can't wait. This drum was not over $1000.
 

swarfrat

tympanus laqueus XV
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
5,745
Reaction score
931
Dangit. I was staying out of this thread. But then on the way to work this morning, someone stuck a gun in my back and made me buy that 28" gong snare, since I was probably the only person on the planet who would totally dig it. (Personally I was holding out for an 8" deep version).
 

drumnhands

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
483
Reaction score
122
Location
Buena Park, CA
While I am not the biggest fan of the brand (they just don't speak to me personally) but I really like his playing and passion. Is he one of the owners?
Ramy was a session guy here on Socal. He always played vintage drums from way back. He's a great player and a long time dear friend of mine. He's doing some pretty cool stuff.
 

foxy_shazamtastic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2013
Messages
226
Reaction score
137
Location
Seattle
If I made an incredible car and charged a huge pile of money for it, some people would buy it, some people would want to buy it, and some people wouldn't buy it.

If I made a car that had crooked axles and maxed out at 45 mph and had no safety features and charged a huge pile of money for it, there'd be some people who'd defend it because it's expensive and not like the other cars out there. But others would call BS on the whole enterprise.

I saw an AK Black Beauty copy at DCP for $3000. It was gorgeous. I took a photo of it. I probably wouldn't buy it given how I think about and use my gear, but man, I could understand why someone would. The price lined up with both the exquisite craftsmanship and the features. This has been true of my experience of almost all other high end drums. Even if I personally don't want one, I can see and appreciate the craftsmanship and clarity of vision.
I think “a car that had crooked axles and maxed out at 45 mph” is a pretty unfair representation of A&F. They seem to perform perfectly well.
 

Trilock_Gurtu

Very well Known Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
988
Reaction score
802
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
You obviously have no experience manufacturing anything on a small level.

Not to give you my life’s background, but this story is not about the successful business that I own that’s in operation supporting my family for almost 20 years. It is about a fun side business I started as a creative outlet.

I started an auxiliary percussion company quite a few years back and created my own designs of original products. To mixed reviews I released one product and sold a few prototypes of different products as well.

Regarding the one product that I pushed, my hometown & childhood friend who plays in very big metal band promoted it on his Facebook and Instagram accounts for me.

Like I said, the reactions and responses on his page were mixed:

1. Some loved it & bought it.
2. Some got it & gave a fair description why they didn’t like it.
3. Some ignorantly bashed it.
4. But the ones that hit me the most were the ones who liked it, were going to buy one, found out how much I charged for it, and then bashed me saying it was a ripoff.

Those people thought I should be selling it for a particular price that was only 25% of what the materials alone cost me.

The crazy part is I sold the product at my cost to simply get back my outsourced labor, materials, and shipping, but that wasn’t good enough for people like that.

I didn’t even apply to the cost:

1. Paying myself for the time it cost me to make each one which obviously any business needs to consider when establishing a price as if the labor is done by an employee.

2. The patents I felt were necessary to do at the time were an additional cost too that was not included in the product.

3. The small amount of advertising done It was not worth considering just yet.

4. The R & D part was fun, so I don’t count that as well, but if any true business needs to take that in consideration in the long run. I know personally Pearl did when determining their price for the electronic kit they made a few years back.

5. CAD drawings that would have obviously been cheaper if I did them myself, but I was overwhelmed at the time.

6. Photography and logo & designs were done by friends and family

As with any business you just have to eat a start up investment, there’s the years of research I had to put into this just to get it off the ground.

You have no idea what it took to find people to simply sell me the small amount of supplies I need. Sure it was on the high end, but one guy told me I had to buy 2000pds of a particular metal if I wanted to do business with him. Add to the mix finding those who were willing to do any outside labor at all considering the small amount I needed. Those two things were not fun by any means.

After awhile I decided to stop promoting my product due to simply not wanting to hear the arm chair quarterback bashing from people who have no balls to take any chances themselves. It just wasn’t worth the effort as the fun part of the R & D was over. I still sell a couple from time to time, but it it’s simply due to word of mouth or simple random discovery on their part.

If A&F closes, don’t be surprised if it’s simply because the negativity people are saying from people like on this forum is not worth the creative outlet he/she is getting from doing it.

View attachment 421726


View attachment 421725
Maybe you oversee A&F's manufacturing, and this explains why they're stuck in niche land. You spew a lot of words out, none that don't make your initial statements any less hyperbole.

"Not to give you my life’s background, but this story is not about the successful business that I own that’s in operation supporting my family for almost 20 years. It is about a fun side business I started as a creative outlet.

I started an auxiliary percussion company quite a few years back and created my own designs of original products. To mixed reviews I released one product and sold a few prototypes of different products as well.

Regarding the one product that I pushed, my hometown & childhood friend who plays in very big metal band promoted it on his Facebook and Instagram accounts for me."

Etc etc...


Nice tale. I don't take stories on the internet for face value...because everyone has one. What was the name of the company? What were the products? Where was the company based? What was the name of this "big metal band"? Examples of their FB and IG posts? Wheres the patents? CAD examples? Ad examples? Don't take it the wrong way, but I vet such things. For every story told on the internet, the vast majority are just that...stories.

If you're going to sell a story, qualify it.

But, I'll bite. Implying that a A&F $2500 snare might cost them $2200 to make is still ridiculous. Just because your venture failed, don't lump A&F in with your fall. I may not be a big fan of the company, but they're clearly more productive then what you presented.

Margins are margins, and any business can't be profitable long term, with those ones.
 


Top