Time To Shake Up Early A. Zildjian Dating (Early K's Too!)

JDA

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You want to Know a Stamp
for the Sound
What does the year "1945" or " 1972" mean to you; well you could say "that sounds like the swingin' Sixties" or
"hmm that's the 80s"
But (as musicians) (we) need Stamp to have more meaning than Date.
And frankly the stamps that are very obvious. Do have a Sound (build) component.
In A's I think of the 1st stamp the Trans stamp the Hollow Block as all having strong Sound (build) components.

Drifting into the 60s -I can only say- vast desert- walking in the desert----only Build Component tell-tale-- is the - and this is a maybe- is the (build) change from Quincy to Norwell. ( I think I can see it (in the cymbal's (Quincy vs Norwell) lathing) and use it but 60s to early 70s is too close to call - (dates) -those to me are the "vast desert" period - "rambling build" period ( or call them (60s up to 1972) all Quincy's..

Old Ks are clear cut in the Stamp/ Build correlation's
as stated previous an entirely different (clearer cut) ballgame.
Basically 3 era's Old Stamp (I II III IV) Intermediate and New Stamp
with a Sound split noted (the "last of the old Stamp) IV sound within the Old Stamp category.
(some can argue another old stamp sound differentiation between I II ...and III's.. but those are way above my pay grade and hardly worth mentioning (you're in the stratosphere if that's your debate) (as in like in "Walter" territory) and am unaware)

Old K Constantinoples I'd rather not discuss (no musical relevance). Those (they) are about all the same except for dramatic weight differences
 
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JDA

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(we're not "diamond dealers" or "postage stamp" collectors- without a build (leading towards a sound correlation; we're (hopefully I assume) musicians.
and search out and acknowledge "insignia's" for that reason mainly. Well... at least I find that... the far more interesting aspect of stamp Cymbal insignia.

well that's my $25 ( I'm way over 2 cents on the subject.
 
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WaggoRecords

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And frankly the stamps that are very obvious. Do have a Sound (build) component.
In A's I think of the 1st stamp the Trans stamp the Hollow Block as all having strong Sound (build) components.
It seems to me there is an implication that stamps and sound components are not strongly related because some cymbals could have sat in a vault for years before being stamped. So hypothetically two cymbals from different eras end up with the same stamp.

Am I getting that right?
 

JDA

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It seems to me there is an implication that stamps and sound components are not strongly related because some cymbals could have sat in a vault for years before being stamped. So hypothetically two cymbals from different eras end up with the same stamp.

Am I getting that right?
yes/ that can occur and likely did/ Within Avedis Zildjian/ But to counter that- "eagle-eye" A experts and aficionado's could possibly "spot" a build not correlating with it's stamp. However few (in total) cymbals this occurred to. I would Trust an A Expert - the A 'experts' - to see this difference.

the Recent $2000 apiece release - of Vault A's - may increase this conversation.
I think - that situation- is still a minority within the totality of A cymbals- but yes You got it.
 
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Franklin Nigel Stein

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In my view, we've found that stamps tell us very little. What we really have is bell/cup, plate connection, lathing and thickness types. A stamp has become an afterthought. Tell me about the cymbal first. Especially the bell. That can tell us everything we need in a nutshell, even within a few years.

The 1 through 6 statements above are well known. Don't forget copper. That was a big deal. Always good to get motivated! We've had a good group here working pretty hard, 8 years for me almost every day when possible. So, glad you're with us. Now, back to work! :cool:

I get ya, no doubt. Though the copper was easier for some industries to get under the table during the war. If they had to have it, and the amount wasn't huge, they just melted the pennies. Don't know if Zildjian ever did that though. I should mention that I have a connection to copper as my grandfather ran the business office of an Anaconda Wire and Cable factory for a decade. I still have the gentleman's travel kit he used to take on his trips to Argentina to visit the mines.

Anyway, I got a PM that advised me that article had been discovered serious collectors in 2017 and that shocked me. I've seen none of this information anywhere on the web and some parts of it are kryptonite on prevailing theories and dating methods. Why was this sat on? I'm hoping it just wasn't contextualized and not brushed under the rug because it looked bad to the theorists then positions.
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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Old K stamp (certainty remains (different solid as an atomic clock (if not in the exact beginning and end year of date certainly in 'the build' corespondent with insignia....

You see that's the difference ..(can't lump the two together: (A stamp the way and how and K stamp their way and how and why ) two different methods and beasts

I'm going to tell ya ooops, say something.
For one company that used more machine assistance compared to the other
Old Ks (builds) Were More Consistent...
the reason being: smaller teams creating each cymbal (less lathers less hammerers, etc
Smaller team
is the Key to (old K era) consistency

Less random than Avedis Zildjian
(seems, sometimes impossible to find two As that (even look) (let alone sound) the same; Old ks look (and sound) like the same fella lathed (same hammer team hammered) every one, thru an entire era.


It's ironic
but
put bank on it

No doubt the methods were different. I've seen a few old A ride cymbals with rivets that the owners swore some dead relative had sent to Zildjian (what I would call an OEM job). But some of them looked different, almost like that day they had the new guy do it cause the old guy was busy.

About the old K's, I've read some supposedly period report that drum companies and even drummers would go to warehouses to select them for stock, and they had to sound their way through as some were dogs.

I'll have to dig that back up and reassess it. The only old K's I've ever owned were what's called the first stamp. Very basic and obviously hand made. They weren't even round. Sounded fine but just never fit in with my other cymbals.
 

JDA

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Ok Just remember that quoting me just cost you $10.
(down from the usual $15 one time newbie discount once
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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Important note:

I should have also mentioned that I tend to start a thread to begin a discussion rather than look for answers. People who disagree with me don't offend me at all. There's great value in group think.
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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Two things to think of...

Great Depression from 1929 to 1939. High unemployment continued until 1941.

WW2 - Making cymbals for the military.

Always good to take anything with a grain of salt.
Personally, I don't think Zildjian MADE cymbals for the military (during the years of raw material restrictions). And I've never seen a reference to that end. They SUPPLIED cymbals to the military. That's a very different idea. From my perspective, and given their whopping 3 employees, it seems to me that the government saw value to society in the Zildjian Company and basically kept them afloat during the war years buying from their warehouse stock. I don't doubt that they made SOME small amount of cymbals, they could have done it by simply melting down and recasting what they already had. My bet would be melting down several smaller cymbals that weren't selling and remaking them into the larger ones that were.
 
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squidart

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Edited down to the most important bit:

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? :)
 
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zenstat

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This thread has reminded me why I left this site. I left to spend more time trying to get the story up to date with current research on

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Main_Page

and found that engaging in discussions here simply took time away from my analysis and writing up. I have been working back through the 80s, 70s, and 60s recently documenting the multiple stamps in use at the same time, and the overlaps. I just haven't got back as far as writing up the 30s and 40s yet although I have mentioned that we need an entirely new paradigm. There is no conspiracy of silence about the uncertainty of dates and the fact that production eras and stamps don't always line up. I will put my hand up for not having a very well indexed site in


but at that time I was trying to hide away the detail and focus on the bigger picture (believe it or not).

There are three older references in this thread thanks to Mike Tarrani. These articles were known before 2010 and were mentioned here:


I've got all three papers although the links in that old thread are dead. I've known about them since Cymbalholic days. What I said to Frank was

My disk header info tells me I downloaded my copy of the 1949 article on 27 Sept 2017. The article has informed my work since then. There is a reason I've long said the production clues tell you when a cymbal was made and the trademark stamp tells you what trademark was applied when it was added. What I haven't finished yet is the work to chart the rise and fall of different production clues over time and how they correlate with trademark stamps. The study of time lags forms another part of that study."
but like stamps on cymbals, that date time stamp for my pdf is just when I downloaded that particular copy to this disk, not when I first read it. :wink: The link I've given was stored in my notes about the history of my exposure to that 1949 paper.

Just a few quotes from my site to try and emphasize how I have long argued that the stamp doesn't establish the manufacture date of the cymbal. As you can see I'm with Cliff, and he has been a great help in this regard.

NOTE: although it may look like Second Stamps start after the move to North Quincy this isn't based on evidence and the stamp dates for the 1930s and early 40s aren't known accurately
I am not responsible for any of the pre 1970s dates, I'm just compiling information painstakingly researched by Bill Hartrick and now in circulation around the web, most often with no acknowledgement of the original source. Once you get into the late 1970s (and ink becomes more of the focus) I've tried to find consensus dates for these changes. Many thanks to all those who are (like me) passionate about cymbals and trying to piece together the history of these alluring metal disks. The information really comes from all the people who have contributed to discussions over the years. I have always depended on the kindness of strangers.
There are cymbals which are hammered and lathed in the style in use around 1954 (the last days of hand hammering for shape, or the early days of developing the Quincy Drop Hammer). But the "stamp" is not the cymbal. The hammering and other production clues tell you when the cymbal was made. The stamp tells you which stamp went on the cymbal when it was stamped. Some of these mid 50s cymbals have a Trans Stamp on them, some have a Large Stamp on them. A few have Small Stamps on them, and fewer have the 1960s short stamp. Not that many cymbals sat in the vault for 7 or more years, but some did. That's why they are relatively rare. It's that simple, although there are other explanations which have been put forward.
If you have a cymbal which has a 1960s short stamp on it, plus hammering which looks like Trans Stamp hammering the you might have one of these. If you have one of these it seems better to avoid calling it a "1954 stamp" and instead refer to it as a "mid 50s cymbal with a 60s short stamp". But it may be difficult to dislodge "1954 stamp" as a term because it has become established.
And an example of where my 1954 and time lag thinking was at in 2016.


BTW I apologize for DFO having lost all the links to my posts when I had my account deleted. I didn't realize the implications at the time.

That 1954 section on my site is now further out of date because in 2019 Bill Hartrick finally announced that he has moved on from his original theory of a specific 1954 trademark stamp. I believe (but cannot prove) that Bill Hartrick's 1954 year for the end of Trans Stamps is pinned to 1954 by the Mechanix Illustrated article because it is the last document (with a year attached) which shows hand hammering in use before the introduction of the Quincy Drop Hammer. But the only way to find out why Bill Hartrick chose certain years for stamps is to ask him. I can only tell you why I've adjusted certain of his years. But all of this will have to wait for me to get more written up for the wiki.
 
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Cliff DeArment

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Much of what we really have are guesses and hopes. We have very good probabilities. Sometimes by the next day? Oops... maybe not... start over. Experts? There aren't any. It's very humbling to say the least.
 

Mcjnic

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Much of what we really have are guesses and hopes. We have very good probabilities. Sometimes by the next day? Oops... maybe not... start over. Experts? There aren't any. It's very humbling to say the least.
This is the first post on cymbal dating that has the aroma of truth.
Thanks for taking the time to post this.
It is quite frustrating to have individual after individual state unequivocally that they have the proof and evidence and know without doubt the precise date of manufacture of a cymbal … only to have a handful of other individuals contradict them with more proof and evidence.
A bit of humbleness as displayed in this post is much appreciated.
Thank you Cliff.

I realize how this can become a mudslinger. But it needn’t be.
It is not a contest.
It is just a question to be answered.
“When?”
Sounds simple.
It is not.

In the future, it would be a good thing for all parties to avoid giving solid pronouncements on this subject.
Allow for error and adjustments.
Zenstat has done some really nice work, but even his work is taken as unchallengeable data by others. Not by him, of course. Zenstat is a true statistician. He knows enough to not speak in absolutes. Unfortunately the same cannot be said by those that read his work.

Anyway, good post Cliff.
It is good to have you here.
 

JDA

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This is the first post on cymbal dating that has the aroma of truth.
"I assume dear Sir you are not in any way referring to old K istanbul cymbals in that blanket statement"
 

JDA

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The problem in my mind.. well you'd like I'd leave it there wouldn't you

Was
Bill H. transferring the analysis - which worked on old K Istanbul cymbals

anyone dispute old K stamp Lines were the first dating analysis done by William?
Good because (I'll check the dates) old K were up first in the Drumaholic analysis.

Transferring that analysis to Avedis Zildjian.
Avedis were not as uniform in their stamping.
Close but not Equal to- as the old K Analysis.

Old K Istanbul were done first
as I remember it
``````````````````````````````

I just checked my paperwork. I had printed out from Cymbalholic the Bill H. postings of Stamp lines.
OLD KS were done in 02 (2002)
AVEDIS were done in 03 (2003)
Date stamps ( they have the month also) on the pages I have/had printed out from at the time Cymbalholic
At the time.
 
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Cliff DeArment

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The problem in my mind.. well you'd like I'd leave it there wouldn't you

Was
Bill H. transferring the analysis - which worked on old K Istanbul cymbals

anyone dispute old K stamp Lines were the first dating analysis done by William?
Good because (I'll check the dates) old K were up first in the Drumaholic analysis.

Transferring that analysis to Avedis Zildjian.
Avedis were not as uniform in their stamping.
Close but not Equal to- as the old K Analysis.

Old K Istanbul were done first
as I remember it
``````````````````````````````

I just checked my paperwork. I had printed out from Cymbalholic the Bill H. postings of Stamp lines.
OLD KS were done in 02 (2002)
AVEDIS were done in 03 (2003)
Date stamps ( they have the month also) on the pages I have/had printed out from at the time Cymbalholic
At the time.
My guess (which I don't know much about) is that maybe K's never sat in a vault. Just make it and send it out.
 

JDA

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My guess (which I don't know much about) is that maybe K's never sat in a vault. Just make it and send it out.
I would assume that myself. Smaller operation
also why all thru an era the cymbals "looked" the same; same 12-20 people doing the work)
and very consistent. On top of that (thru an era)
 


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