Time To Shake Up Early A. Zildjian Dating (Early K's Too!)

Cliff DeArment

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As to A's, Avedis was very picky about pitch (until Ringo world). Here's why…

Symphonic percussionists wanted them to be in tune. We think of Jazz players, but who really had the big bucks? Orchestral guys. They had a REAL job. He'd hear, "Do you have one in A?" A music writer (Broadway, etc) or conductor could also ask for that kind of stuff. I learned that the hard way. Started a gong company from Bali. Brought in tons of cool gongs. Studio guys and usual percussionists would ask, "That's great! Do you have one in G?" I'd have to say, well they're Balinese and they don't use the A440 concept, but here's one that's close. "Can you tune it up?" Sure, for a small sum. Over and over, "Do you have one in E?". Umm, not that one at the moment, sorry. Want a B? No sale. I sold the company to another guy who tanked and sent some of it to Clarion Music in Chinatown (SF). Pitch was the downfall. Studio guys (like Emil) had the major money and wanted it in tune, end of story.

The point is… A symphonist (from that era) could buy a K that's not going to be in tune, or buy a cheaper A that's actually in A. It was a no brainer. That's one of the reasons I love the 50's era (I'm a pitch freak). About 90% of them are still within a few hertz, after 70 years! They would have to be well cured to do it, which takes time, so into the vault they go. Why else would they put them in a vault in the first place? Pitch. The end of the last process would need a final tuning. If it was stamped first and came out later, you might still have to lathe it again here or there to clean it up, possibly lathing it over the stamp. Make sense? If you make a cymbal, tune it and sell it without waiting, a year later it will be a little sharp. I've tuned enough gongs to know. After it's fully settled (takes a few years) then it's stable.

Once Ringo showed up it was fair game. Just sell it, there's a back order. Into the 60's/70's it's 50/50 if it is in tune, or even close.

I can't prove how it went. We don't have Avedis to ask. But, it seems like he was a little anal in general. Had to be perfect in every way. A real pitch freak? Yup. There's proof on that one.

That's one of the big A/K differences. For fun I just pulled out a K and what did I find? Somewhere in the middle between E and F. Pulled out two 50's A's. What did I get? One A and one G, both right on the money. Grabbed a 14" from the 30's. Solid G#. Do the same thing with a set of K's? Good luck.

One big reason why an A stamp can't be dated.


PS... Had a little experiment. Pulled out two 60's heavy lathed bells. 1: Flat, out of tune. 2: All over the place! Fine lathed bells are the clue of it all. Learn bell types and you'll know the years of what you really have.
 
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JDA

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As to A's, Avedis was very picky about pitch (until Ringo world). Here's why…

Symphonic percussionists wanted them to be in tune. We think of Jazz players, but who really had the big bucks? Orchestral guys. They had a REAL job. He'd hear, "Do you have one in A?" A music writer (Broadway, etc) or conductor could also ask for that kind of stuff. I learned that the hard way. Started a gong company from Bali. Brought in tons of cool gongs. Studio guys and usual percussionists would ask, "That's great! Do you have one in G?" I'd have to say, well they're Balinese and they don't use the A440 concept, but here's one that's close. "Can you tune it up?" Sure, for a small sum. Over and over, "Do you have one in E?". Umm, not that one at the moment, sorry. Want a B? No sale. I sold the company to another guy who tanked and sent some of it to Clarion Music in Chinatown (SF). Pitch was the downfall. Studio guys (like Emil) had the major money and wanted it in tune, end of story.

The point is… A symphonist (from that era) could buy a K that's not going to be in tune, or buy a cheaper A that's actually in A. It was a no brainer. That's one of the reasons I love the 50's era (I'm a pitch freak). About 90% of them are still within a few hertz, after 70 years! They would have to be well cured to do it, which takes time, so into the vault they go. Why else would they put them in a vault in the first place? Pitch. The end of the last process would need a final tuning. If it was stamped first and came out later, you might still have to lathe it again here or there to clean it up, possibly lathing it over the stamp. Make sense? If you make a cymbal, tune it and sell it without waiting, a year later it will be a little sharp. I've tuned enough gongs to know. After it's fully settled (takes a few years) then it's stable.

Once Ringo showed up it was fair game. Just sell it, there's a back order. Into the 60's/70's it's 50/50 if it is in tune, or even close.

I can't prove how it went. We don't have Avedis to ask. But, it seems like he was a little anal in general. Had to be perfect in every way. A real pitch freak? Yup. There's proof on that one.

That's one of the big A/K differences. For fun I just pulled out a K and what did I find? Somewhere in the middle between E and F. Pulled out two 50's A's. What did I get? One A and one G, both right on the money. Grabbed a 14" from the 30's. Solid G#. Do the same thing with a set of K's? Good luck.

One big reason why an A stamp can't be dated.
wow. if I read that correctly. Cliff is more hardcore on "A stamps" than I am.
And I'm the one that makes Zen sick???! : )

As far as A's Go:
jda believes in:
1st Stamps
Trans Stamps
Hollow Block stamps
and their date/years/

and also that those...above .. have a corresponding "sound component"

Big Stamp and Small stamp- may also be date accurate but recognizing them is beyond jda's interest "to see".
I also believe in a "sound component" difference between the later 60s Quincy and early 70s Norwell built cymbals..

Believe and glad I have been clear and consistent in how I have chosen to believe

but Cliff just said
One big reason why an A stamp can't be dated.

whoa, dude.. : )
 
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Cliff DeArment

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Well, here's the deal. Carefully make and tune the cymbals flat. The pitch is going to go up. Look at it next year. It depends on how hot it was made that day. Maybe one that was made in the winter, another that was made in the summer. Here's one that's ready. Here's one that it's. Wait for the pitch. It could take years, or not
 
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JDA

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Well, here's the deal. Carefully make and tune the cymbals flat. The pitch is going to go up. Look at it next year. It depends on how hot it was made that day. Here's one that's ready. Here's one that it's. Wait for the pitch. It could take years, or not
not talking about pitches was refering to Stamp dating A's.

One big reason why an A stamp can't be dated.
Best you clarify what approximate time era you're talking about- with that statement Cliff,
Can't leave 1st stamps, Trans stamp, Hollow Block, hanging out there like that (the "clear" builds if you will...)

You must mean - with that statement- a certain General era year period..
 
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Cliff DeArment

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Let's separate 1st from the others. Pre-war, or after. I have about 8 Hollow's at the moment. There are 3 different bell lathing types that show the timeline. Some match the mid Trans and late Trans era and others show the late Hollow bell lathe era. What we don't see on a Hollow is the next bell lathing type that is coming.
 
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JDA

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So I emailed Bill H. concerning what I already knew. that the K stamp timeline was done first. the A was after.
"Yes, that is correct. "
was Bill's response.
 
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JDA

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@Cliff DeArment @zenstat Then on the broader A issue of the stamp being applied when cymbal was built Bill had this to say:

"Joe:

It's true. Some were stamped outside of the build period. But I am about to address that when I continue my thread about the integrated vs. non-integrated bell. (jda- at VDF) That thread has experienced some "mission creep" but in a good direction into this topic which is good. I need a little time to complete this because I'm going to use one of my own cymbals as an example with photos. Also I will give the reason why the 1954 stamp theory is now debunked, as well addressing the lag time issue between build time and trademark stamp which can occur on SOME cymbals. I refer to those cymbals as "off trademark" types. And finally I'll be giving a spirited defense for the integrity of trademark theory contending that it still remains valid as a useful guide for correlating manufacturing characteristics to stamp era, and hence the sound characteristics; because most cymbals follow it. And it'll be a big explanation too.

If you want to use the above statement to post on Drum Forum you have my permission. I plan to take this up within 2 days time. -Bill"
 

JDA

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and a follow up up and out from Bill H.
``````````````````````````````
"Joe:

That's good. And just for the record I'm always open to new ideas concerning trademark theory. Nothing is necessarily chiseled in stone about all this. If new reliable evidence appears then it should be incorporated into the entire body of knowledge on this subject. Being open to new ideas and information is the way that this knowledge progresses. From conjecture, to hypothesis, to theory.....that's how science is done. And It can always change over time as new knowledge presents itself. This is the essence of how science is done, and that is the very way that I try to approach this subject.

(you may use the above if you like.) -Bill"

```````````````````````````````````````
 

Franklin Nigel Stein

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This thread has reminded me why I left this site. I left to spend more time trying to get the story up to date with current research on

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Main_Page

and found that engaging in discussions here simply took time away from my analysis and writing up. I have been working back through the 80s, 70s, and 60s recently documenting the multiple stamps in use at the same time, and the overlaps. I just haven't got back as far as writing up the 30s and 40s yet although I have mentioned that we need an entirely new paradigm. There is no conspiracy of silence about the uncertainty of dates and the fact that production eras and stamps don't always line up. I will put my hand up for not having a very well indexed site in


but at that time I was trying to hide away the detail and focus on the bigger picture (believe it or not).

There are three older references in this thread thanks to Mike Tarrani. These articles were known before 2010 and were mentioned here:


I've got all three papers although the links in that old thread are dead. I've known about them since Cymbalholic days. What I said to Frank was



but like stamps on cymbals, that date time stamp for my pdf is just when I downloaded that particular copy to this disk, not when I first read it. :wink: The link I've given was stored in my notes about the history of my exposure to that 1949 paper.

Just a few quotes from my site to try and emphasize how I have long argued that the stamp doesn't establish the manufacture date of the cymbal. As you can see I'm with Cliff, and he has been a great help in this regard.









And an example of where my 1954 and time lag thinking was at in 2016.


BTW I apologize for DFO having lost all the links to my posts when I had my account deleted. I didn't realize the implications at the time.

That 1954 section on my site is now further out of date because in 2019 Bill Hartrick finally announced that he has moved on from his original theory of a specific 1954 trademark stamp. I believe (but cannot prove) that Bill Hartrick's 1954 year for the end of Trans Stamps is pinned to 1954 by the Modern Mechanix article because it is the last document (with a year attached) which reviews the hand hammering in use before the introduction of the Quincy Drop Hammer. But all of this will have to wait for me to get more written up for the wiki.

Ironically, I just put the article up on this site 5 minutes ago and just before I read this.

I can't fault your cymbal insight. It would take me 1000 years to get anywhere close to having that level of understanding. My struggle with the Zenstat website probably stems from the fact that I've just seen waaaaay too many listings of old A. Zildjians where they confidently date them using your site while not realizing it was only when it was stamped. If I were you, I would add that proviso as it would bring a bit of needed context.

Personally, I'm wrong ALL the time. I married my wife just so someone was right there to inform me of that fact (OK, maybe there were a few other reasons).
 
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Franklin Nigel Stein

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Tell me about this K Constantinople French stamp, though. Never seen it.
well, I'd never even heard of that until I read it. In order for any of those cymbals to currently exist, they'd have needed to have escaped the urgent need for metals on all sides during WWI and WWII.
 


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