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To Rivet or Not To Rivet. That is the question. ;)

Rick

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I don't have much experience with this, so I thought I would pick the brains of those who do... and I know we have a lot of very smart and experienced drummers here!

I recently acquired an Avedis 19" (reissue) cymbal on a trade with another drummer here. I really like it. I'd say it's a great crash and a good ride. I think adding rivets to it might possibly take the ride characteristics to another level. My concern is that I don't want to mess up the beautiful crash. I'm thinking maybe just a couple of rivets, either in a cluster or spaced out a bit? I'm basically trying to decide if I can make it an even better ride without screwing it up as a crash.

So, specifically, what in your experience do you find adding rivets to a cymbal does to the crash? Would the crash sound basically stay the same but maybe just a slightly shorter sustain, or do you think it would sound substantially different as a crash? Would you add rivets to this cymbal (audio sample obviously without rivets below)?

This is a video the drummer I got it from did for me. I'd say it's a very good sample of what the cymbal sounds like in person...

 

TPC

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I love rivets. I put them in most of the cymbals I have, but not in a “dedicated crash”.

I find an improvement in the ride sound, but it is not without a cost in the … directness and focus of the crash sound. These affects are subtle, but real.

My tipping point is simply - is this cymbal used mostly as a “crash” or “ride”. Mostly a crash, no rivets. Mostly a ride, rivets.
 

hsosdrum

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Why not try a chain or some other "add-on rivet" thingie on it to confirm that rivets won't alter the crash sound in a way you don't like. BTW, that's a very nice-sounding cymbal just like it is.
 

Rick

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I love rivets. I put them in most of the cymbals I have, but not in a “dedicated crash”.

I find an improvement in the ride sound, but it is not without a cost in the … directness and focus of the crash sound. These affects are subtle, but real.

My tipping point is simply - is this cymbal used mostly as a “crash” or “ride”. Mostly a crash, no rivets. Mostly a ride, rivets.
What if it's 50/50? lol

Seriously though, good advice and I appreciate it!
 
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Rick

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Why not try a chain or some other "add-on rivet" thingie on it to confirm that rivets won't alter the crash sound in a way you don't like. BTW, that's a very nice-sounding cymbal just like it is.
That's a great idea! I like it! What kind of a chain would you guys say equates to two rivets?
 

rkingston

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one or two rivets at most is all most cymbals need
^ Yes, this.

Not a rule, but in general, you don't need more than one or two rivets on a cymbal. The weight from too many can actually choke the cymbal as it would otherwise naturally fade. So instead of a gradual sizzle that smoothly tapers off to silence, the sizzle can actually suddenly stop in a very unmusical way before the natural decay of the vibration as it gets quieter.

If you drill, use a dedicated metal bit, and add a couple drops of oil as you go. Tri-Flo or WD40 or something. Wood block underneath. Smooth the burrs with a file.

What kind of a chain would you guys say equates to two rivets?

There's plenty out there in the market, but they're pretty overpriced for what it is. You know what can work great and costs next to nothing? The pull chain used for a light. Cut an 8" length or so, secure it to a washer, then place the washer on your cymbal stand and let the chain dangle. Experiment with different lengths. See how the cymbal angle influences the chain response, etc.

Have fun!

NB: If there's one drawback to the chain method, it's its tendency to get tangled. If you hit it (the cymbal or the chain) just right, it can wind itself around the post or the felt washer, wrap around your stick, or even pull it right off the stand! Meh. Just like anything, you practice and learn to work with it.
 

Soulfinger

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Just take a small metal washer (like those used on tuning rods) and tape it on the top of your cymbal so that it can move freely. That´s how the cymbal will sound with one rivet (not exactly, but very close). Play it for a while and see if you like it.
 

Rick

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Google Search/rivets dfo
then select : more results from www.drumforum.org
It's all there, everything you ever wanted to know about riveting cymbals, several times over.
Thanks for that... it was very helpful! So here's what I think I've decided. Wanted to throw it out there to see if anybody has anything to add or maybe thinks I'm going wrong anywhere...

It's a 19" cymbal, so I'm thinking just two rivets. I found where the cymbal sits with its weight distribution... so I'm planning to do a two rivet cluster at the 12:00 position. I thought I would spread the two rivets 2 1/2" apart straddling 12:00. I did the stick test to see where the stick tip is most excited resting on the cymbal after crashing it, and that seems to be right at 1 1/2" from the edge. So that's where I thought I would put the rivets.

Memphis Drum Shop does rivet installation for $10/rivet, so I'm going to take the easy way out and have them do it. They said they usually put the Zildjian rivets on Zildjian cymbals, but they also have several other kinds of rivets, including the Bosphorus ones that everybody seems to like. Any thoughts on that too?

P.S. @JDA - I'd especially be interested in your thoughts on any of this! Thanks!
 

GMFrancis

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Fitting a chain or an adjustable rivet gizmo is the best advice. Get one of the Tackle Instrument accessories, fit it and play it non stop. When you’ve had enough take it off and go back to the original sound and see what you prefer.
Ive had 5-6 cymbals that I’ve fitted with rivets and I don’t have any of them now. I do believe some cymbals benefit from having two or three rivets installed but often I feel it’s a psychological thing where you’re trying to get something better out of a cymbal that just doesn’t sound too good.
 

GiveMeYourSmallestSticks!

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Beautiful cymbal! I used to have a set of the Avedis reissues (21", 19", 18", 15" hats), and the 19" was my fave of the bunch and quite similar sounding to yours. It was the last one I held onto, but it didn't really jive with the K Cons I replaced the others with, so I reluctantly sold it. Enjoy yours, it's a great multi-use cymbal.

As for adding rivets to a cymbal you crash, you do need to consider how many and their weight so that they don't bring the decay to an abrupt halt. Two rivets in that cymbal sounds like it should be the perfect amount, but the weight of the rivets matters too. I've installed my own rivets in a bunch of different cymbals over the years, but can't quite remember how the Zildjian rivets compare to others (other than being a pain in the butt to install). I tried the Sabian rivets, but found them way too heavy and any more than one would choke the cymbal, it also took more work to get them going. I switched to the Bosphorus brass rivets, and find them much lighter and smoother sounding. People here like them for good reason. Another great reason to like them is that they're much easier to install and remove than other rivets, so you could potentially remove one or both if you ever felt like it. Drilling holes in a cymbal is permanent, but that doesn't mean they need to be filled with rivets forever more. With the Bosphorus you'll be able to easily remove and reinstall them at will, making this a less permanent change.

Finally, as for what rivets add to a crash cymbal, a bit of extra texture and a longer decay. Not sure how much of that is noticeable though when crashing, as opposed to hearing that extra layer of sizzle under a ride pattern. I have a great 20" high bell thin high ride that's become one of two favourite crash/rides, and it's got three rivets installed. I got it used at a deep discount because it had 3 rivet holes drilled, and not everybody wants or appreciates that, which may be your one hesitation (resale). TBH, I was strongly considering drilling my 19" Avedis for rivets, but when it was clear I'd probably end up selling it I resisted the urge. That said, properly sized and drilled rivet holes have never deterred me from a cymbal, it's just less work for me if I want to install some rivets down the line.

Good luck and enjoy the sizzle!
 

Rick

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Beautiful cymbal! I used to have a set of the Avedis reissues (21", 19", 18", 15" hats), and the 19" was my fave of the bunch and quite similar sounding to yours. It was the last one I held onto, but it didn't really jive with the K Cons I replaced the others with, so I reluctantly sold it. Enjoy yours, it's a great multi-use cymbal.

As for adding rivets to a cymbal you crash, you do need to consider how many and their weight so that they don't bring the decay to an abrupt halt. Two rivets in that cymbal sounds like it should be the perfect amount, but the weight of the rivets matters too. I've installed my own rivets in a bunch of different cymbals over the years, but can't quite remember how the Zildjian rivets compare to others (other than being a pain in the butt to install). I tried the Sabian rivets, but found them way too heavy and any more than one would choke the cymbal, it also took more work to get them going. I switched to the Bosphorus brass rivets, and find them much lighter and smoother sounding. People here like them for good reason. Another great reason to like them is that they're much easier to install and remove than other rivets, so you could potentially remove one or both if you ever felt like it. Drilling holes in a cymbal is permanent, but that doesn't mean they need to be filled with rivets forever more. With the Bosphorus you'll be able to easily remove and reinstall them at will, making this a less permanent change.

Finally, as for what rivets add to a crash cymbal, a bit of extra texture and a longer decay. Not sure how much of that is noticeable though when crashing, as opposed to hearing that extra layer of sizzle under a ride pattern. I have a great 20" high bell thin high ride that's become one of two favourite crash/rides, and it's got three rivets installed. I got it used at a deep discount because it had 3 rivet holes drilled, and not everybody wants or appreciates that, which may be your one hesitation (resale). TBH, I was strongly considering drilling my 19" Avedis for rivets, but when it was clear I'd probably end up selling it I resisted the urge. That said, properly sized and drilled rivet holes have never deterred me from a cymbal, it's just less work for me if I want to install some rivets down the line.

Good luck and enjoy the sizzle!
Thanks for the insightful response! I think I'm going to send the cymbal to Memphis Drum Shop and have two rivets installed as I described above. I need that cymbal for a gig next Sunday, so it'll have to be after that. I'll talk to MDS about the Zildjian versus Bosphorus rivets. I tend to think with just two that I might want the Zildjian rivets for a bit more sizzle. I have a couple of Zildjian cymbals with a cluster of 3 rivets (20" K Con light and a Armand "Beautiful Baby") so I'm familiar with what those rivets sound like. Thanks again for your insight!
 

GiveMeYourSmallestSticks!

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Thanks for the insightful response! I think I'm going to send the cymbal to Memphis Drum Shop and have two rivets installed as I described above. I need that cymbal for a gig next Sunday, so it'll have to be after that. I'll talk to MDS about the Zildjian versus Bosphorus rivets. I tend to think with just two that I might want the Zildjian rivets for a bit more sizzle. I have a couple of Zildjian cymbals with a cluster of 3 rivets (20" K Con light and a Armand "Beautiful Baby") so I'm familiar with what those rivets sound like. Thanks again for your insight!
My pleasure, never know if I'm saying too much, but hope my insights are helpful. Funnily enough I have a 22" K Con light, and it's one of my favourite cymbals. At about 2400g, it's a pretty average weight for a 22", but that's the one that got choked by one Sabian rivet. After switching to Bosphorus rivets, I found 4 to be the magic number, drilling one hole at a time to figure it out. I've been very interested in tracking down a 20" light given that I love the 22" so much, how do you like that 20" light?
 

Rick

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My pleasure, never know if I'm saying too much, but hope my insights are helpful. Funnily enough I have a 22" K Con light, and it's one of my favourite cymbals. At about 2400g, it's a pretty average weight for a 22", but that's the one that got choked by one Sabian rivet. After switching to Bosphorus rivets, I found 4 to be the magic number, drilling one hole at a time to figure it out. I've been very interested in tracking down a 20" light given that I love the 22" so much, how do you like that 20" light?
I love the 20 K Con light with rivets! I've had it several years and have probably played it well over 100 gigs. It's sounded great in every musical situation I've put it in. It wouldn't cut through a loud mix without being mic'd but I rarely play anything very loud and when I do the overhead mics seem to pick it up fine. Just a beautiful sounding cymbal! I bought it new from MDS, so here's the demo video they did on it...

 

5stroke

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Just take a small metal washer (like those used on tuning rods) and tape it on the top of your cymbal so that it can move freely. That´s how the cymbal will sound with one rivet (not exactly, but very close). Play it for a while and see if you like it.
Amazing suggestion from Soulfinger :hello1:--I tried this tonight using a small #8 washer with a very small piece of clear tape, exposing 1/2 the rivet below the tape so it could flap around freely.
Moved it around on different areas of the cymbal as well to compare sustains. The rides were 18, 20 and 21.
The taped-washer sound was the most "rivety" I've been able to get, compared to taped pennies, dimes, chains and name brand sizzle chains. Achieved using just 1 washer... 2 washers (separately taped and positioned) sounded a bit too much.
The great benefits of using the small washer: (a) the near zero-cost, (b) the intensity of sound with so little effort and (c) the easy a-b test (w/ and w/out on the same ride) to see what sounds good and where, then removing it with no hassle.
It also satisfied my curiosity about the rivet sound.
If using only 1 ride, I probably wouldn't want a permanent rivet sound all the time, perhaps for a few songs now and then. If I used 2 rides maybe I'd keep the washer taped on 1 ride until whenever, then easily remove.
I've stuck a taped washer inside my cymbal bag's compartment to experiment further as several gigs come up soon.
 

foxy_shazamtastic

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I don't have much experience with this, so I thought I would pick the brains of those who do... and I know we have a lot of very smart and experienced drummers here!

I recently acquired an Avedis 19" (reissue) cymbal on a trade with another drummer here. I really like it. I'd say it's a great crash and a good ride. I think adding rivets to it might possibly take the ride characteristics to another level. My concern is that I don't want to mess up the beautiful crash. I'm thinking maybe just a couple of rivets, either in a cluster or spaced out a bit? I'm basically trying to decide if I can make it an even better ride without screwing it up as a crash.

So, specifically, what in your experience do you find adding rivets to a cymbal does to the crash? Would the crash sound basically stay the same but maybe just a slightly shorter sustain, or do you think it would sound substantially different as a crash? Would you add rivets to this cymbal (audio sample obviously without rivets below)?

This is a video the drummer I got it from did for me. I'd say it's a very good sample of what the cymbal sounds like in person...

I always thought about riveting that cymbal and adding a little more texture. I love the crash sound of riveted cymbals too, I don’t think it would mess with that at all. Funnily enough I’m thinking about riveting the cymbal you traded me as well. Love that thing, it’s been the main ride on my kit since I got it.
 


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